回复：反驳“HPV 疫苗:一些医生没说的事实”

Here is my counter-rebuttal By foodconsumer



我来逐点反驳“HPV 疫苗:一些医生没说的事实”一文。请读英文部分，有事实、有根据，您泡一杯茶，坐下来慢慢读。。。。。。


〉首先声明：本人是搞科学搞工程的，不是行医的。但是就HPV疫苗，本人花了上１００小时阅读分析各类报道。可以说，我所了解到的可能远超很多医生所了解的。

Spending time does not make one an expert. You need expertise and good judgement. In other words, you simply can’t say: I have been eating since I was born, I therefore am a good cook. So please listen to the medical experts but not crack doctors.




I merely present the FACTS. If you feel the data are erroneous, kindly point me to the right source(s) and correct me. I challenge you to do that. But be respectful and responsible when you say anything! Don’t treat me like I am an idiot. (foodconsumer)





〉１）换句话说，临床试验结果在１１－１２小女孩不一定有效（VALID）。

True. The phase I and II clinical trials were conducted in women with age ranging from 14 to 25 and girls 11-12 years old were not included. But remember the vaccine works best before girls become sexually active.


Thank you very much for your answer: “True”. I do not care about what else you said. By the way, your statement “But remember the vaccine works best before girls become sexually active” is not exactly what the trials results mean to say. The trial results showed the HPV vaccine is useless among those who have been affected with HPV before entering the trials. That is why the government recommends that young girls get the vaccine because when they start having sex and acquiring HPV, it would be too late to prevent cervical cancer using the vaccine. That does not mean the vaccine works best before girls become sexually active. Again these are two different concepts. Please be specific because I may find fault in your statement.(by foodconsumer)



〉２）HPV疫苗的临床试验观察的对象是 PRE－CANCEROUS LESION，并不是子宫颈癌本身。

It is the well-established fact that precancerous lesions will lead to cancer if untreated. That is why they are “PRE-CANCEROUS”.


I merely tell readers a FACT: That is, when trials were conducted, the outcome considered was not the reduction in the rate or incidence of cervical cancer, rather than, the incidence of precancerous lesions. There is an association, but two different concepts. I just wanted to point out the FACT and I have no intention to prove or disprove the association.(by foodconsumer)


〉３）HPV疫苗的临床试验是短期的。它的长期的疗效（EFFICACY）和安全性（SAFETY）无人知道。这就是说，就算是短期有效，过了５年，１０年，２０年需不需要BOOSTER，没有人知道。

Many vaccinations require booster shots but that does not mean it is ineffective. Most of us received polio, DTaP and MMR in several dosages. I speculate that girls need booster shots of Gardasil to maintain the immune potency. In addition, vaccines against other HPV subtypes may be added as we know more about the virus.


Again, I merely tell readers a FACT. I don’t care in the future a booster is needed or not.(by foodconsumer)


〉４）该疫苗是在２００６年６月得到FDA的批准。到２００７年１０月，政府已经收到 3,461副作用的报道比如头痛，呕吐等，包括，１１人在接受该疫苗后死亡。

Remember, these fatal cases were reported only on lay websites, but not in professional journals. If one dies in a car crash after eating at MacDonald’s, can you claim the big Mac caused the driver’s death?


Your statement is wrong!!! How do you know I cited the data from “lay websites”. How much do you know about the subject? Don’t tell me MacDonald’s (by the way, the spelling does not seem right!!!). Be focused on the issue. (by foodconsumer)


〉５）德州（TEXAS）州长PERRY在２００７初签署命令要求该州１１－１２岁女孩接受HPV疫苗。该命令引起该州的立法人和很多民众的不满。 PERRY曾受惠与跟该疫苗制造商MERCK有关系的人。PERRY的理由是： １｝疫苗可以救人；２）疫苗可以省下本来需要用来治疗子宫颈癌的费用。但是，那是骗人的。本人发现，在德州一年花在子宫颈癌的费用不过１０MILLION （一千万），而一年的HPV疫苗的费用需要１２０MILLION （一亿二千万）。多花１２倍的钱。

Your numbers are clearly wrong.

The cost saving associated with HPV vaccine is NOT only related to the diagnosis and treatment of cervical cancer, but also related to the diagnosis and treatment of all the“pre-cancerous lesions”. The latter costs far more than cervical cancer. Plus the social benefits of the vaccinations should not be measured only in monetary term.


You don’t even know how I calculate it. How do you say someone calculated it wrong without knowing how he calculates? Unless you know the answer beforehand? Then tell me how much HPV vaccination would cost the Texas government and how much diagnosis and treatment of cervical cancer would cost on the other hand? Go do your math before you say anything.(by foodconsumer)


〉６）MERCK，政府官员，和很多医生大力推荐HPV疫苗，但也有不少学术界的名人反对１１－１２岁女孩接受HPV疫苗。Diane M. Harper，Dartmouth医学院妇科俺症预防研究部的主任教授，说，给１１岁的女孩HPV疫苗是一个很浩大的公共健康实验（＂GREAT BIG PUBLIC HEALTH EXPERIMENT＂）。她说，法定要求１１－１２岁的女孩接受HPV疫苗是很可笑的。她进一步说，还没有证据可以证明该疫苗是安全的。

There are always two sides of the coin. The question is which side has the data and evidence to support his/her argument. Gardasil advocates have data! Does Diane Harper have any evidence to support her argument?

Again focus on the issue. Don’t tell me a coin has two sides like I am an idiot! If you have different opinions, argue with her. I merely tell readers what ONE EXPERT said about HPV vaccine.(by foodconsumer)


〉７）就算是HPV疫苗有效安全，有没有必要接受它呢？政府援引美国俺症学会（AMERICAN CANCER SOCIETY）的数据说，在美国每年约有１０，０００妇女得子宫颈癌。３０００多人死于该疾病。

3600 is a big number! Do you know how many people die of AIDS every year in US? 15,000! You go figure if it is necessary to stop the cervical cancer-caused death. If your wife or daughter is dying of cervical cancer, please come and tell me it is OK to have it. Besides, your examples are ridiculous. Death from traffic accidents are not preventable and cervical cancer is preventable.

Tell me if I said something wrong. Don’t tell me anything else. (by foodconsumer)


〉８）HPV疫苗不能替代 Pap smear screening。

Pap smear screening 是一种评价子宫颈癌的风险很有效的工具 Pap smear is only a screening tool. It does not stop HPV infection or carcinogenesis caused by HPV. In contrast, HPV vaccine does it in majority of the cases.


Tell me if I said this wrong. I wanted to you know that my statement “HPV疫苗不能替代 Pap smear screening” is what the government says. Do you have any issue about that? Go and fight the U.S. government.(by foodconsumer)

〉９）而HPV疫苗 （Gardasil）有可能对大约２。２％的带有危险HPV病毒（种类１６和１８）的妇女有用（如果有的话）。

你又错了！ HPV 16 and 18 are the major types and account for the majority of the cervical cancer cases.


I did not say HPV 16 and 18 are NOT the major. Tell me what I did say wrong. (by foodconsumer)



〉１０）可以说子宫颈癌的风险是很低的。（每年全美每年不过死３０００来人，是很稀罕的（RARE））。

See No 7. Thanks to the modern medicine including successful vaccination programs, many contagious diseases, such as small pox and polio, have been eradicated or greatly reduced.


I don't know if what you are saying is relevant to what I said. “可以说子宫颈癌的风险是很低的” is my opinion. (foodconsumer)