担心医生被AI排挤的看进来,考虑看病用AI的也看进来:

来源: 糖果果 2018-07-25 18:59:00 [] [博客] [旧帖] [给我悄悄话] 本文已被阅读: 次 (6422 bytes)

 

AI 排挤医生?。。。我的看法是:路漫漫其修远兮。

Till then,医生有工做,做AI的也有工做,双赢~~~  :)

https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/artificial-intelligence/ibm-s-watson-recommended-unsafe-and-incorrect-cancer-treatments-stat-report-finds.html

IBM's Watson recommended 'unsafe and incorrect' cancer treatments, STAT report finds

Written by Julie Spitzer | July 25, 2018 

IBM's Watson supercomputer, once hailed as a revolutionary cancer treatment tool, reportedly gave physicians inaccurate cancer treatment advice, and company medical specialists and customers reported "multiple examples of unsafe and incorrect treatment recommendations," according to internal IBM documents reviewed by STAT.

Here are 10 things to know:

1. The documents blame IBM engineers and New York City-based Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center — one of the early adopters of Watson for Oncology — for poorly training Watson software by using just a few hypothetical cancer cases instead of real patient data as well as treatment recommendations from a few specialists as opposed to "guidelines or evidence." This calls into question the validity of the tool as physician's personal preferences trumped IBM's touted machine learning analyses. IBM also promised Watson used historical patient data, but according to the documents, that was not the case.

2. According to STAT, the documents — slide decks from June and July 2017 by then-IBM Watson Health Deputy Chief Health Officer Andrew Norden, MD — include customers' assessments of Watson for Oncology that say it produced "often inaccurate" recommendations that pose "serious questions about the process for building content and the underlying technology." No patient deaths have resulted from hospitals' use of Watson for Oncology, STAT reports.

3. IBM executives have repeatedly told customers that Watson for Oncology's advice is based on real patient data and physicians around the world love the tool.

4. A previous STAT investigation showed Watson for Oncology wasn't living up to the company's expectations, but these new documents show IBM officials knew its product was making recommendations that conflicted with national treatment guidelines and that physicians did not find useful for treating patients. All the while, IBM executives were speaking favorably about the supercomputer.

5. "This product is a piece of s—," one physician at Jupiter Hospital in Florida told IBM executives, according to the documents. "We bought it for marketing and with hopes that you would achieve the vision. We can't use it for most cases."

6. The documents also showed that several IBM employees told Dr. Norden the product was "very limited."

7. In a statement to STAT, IBM defended its software, stating: "We have learned and improved Watson Health based on continuous feedback from clients, new scientific evidence and new cancers and treatment alternatives. This includes 11 software releases for even better functionality during the past year, including national guidelines for cancers ranging from colon to liver cancer."

8. A Memorial Sloan Kettering spokesperson told STAT the documents reveal the "robust nature of the process" of building and deploying Watson for Oncology in clinical care, and that the cancer center is working with IBM to improve the accuracy of the system's recommendations.

9. "Patient safety is paramount," the cancer center's spokesperson said. "While Watson for Oncology provides safe treatment options, treatment decisions ultimately require the involvement and clinical judgement of the treating physician… No technology can replace a doctor and his or her knowledge about their individual patient. To that point, the tool is also not equivalent to the cancer care delivered at MSK."

10. IBM recently laid off a number of Watson employees, including several from its three recently acquired companies Truven, Phytel and Explorys. Those employees revealed several issues with the company's faulty internal organization and inability to make Watson profitable.

所有跟帖: 

到处都有量血压的机器,但最后开药还是要去找医生量过才可以。 -yhr- 给 yhr 发送悄悄话 (0 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 19:06:21

哈哈,这个比喻好!在紫檀常看到AI统一天下的大跃进言论,忍不住转这个过来泼泼冷水;) -糖果果- 给 糖果果 发送悄悄话 糖果果 的博客首页 (0 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 19:10:32

现在的药品剂量是固定的,未来的药品剂量将会根据每个患者的不同需求而定制, -加州阳光123- 给 加州阳光123 发送悄悄话 加州阳光123 的博客首页 (217 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 19:18:21

太精确了吧,需要吗?;) -糖果果- 给 糖果果 发送悄悄话 糖果果 的博客首页 (183 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 19:25:07

数盲文科生又要多花钱? -career- 给 career 发送悄悄话 (232 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 19:29:23

对于糖尿病患者,每日胰岛素的剂量一定要非常精确,否则严重时会有生命危险。其他某些疾病也是。 -加州阳光123- 给 加州阳光123 发送悄悄话 加州阳光123 的博客首页 (187 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 19:29:31

听上去激动人心。新的科技革命就要到来。 -各言- 给 各言 发送悄悄话 (0 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 19:31:11

"IT是幸运行业,身处伟大时代" -career- 给 career 发送悄悄话 (211 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 19:51:29

IBM 不是AI的leader -backyardfun- 给 backyardfun 发送悄悄话 (47 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 19:13:22

可能。但怎么说IBM也是业界大佬,也就这outcome,真不是容易的事 -糖果果- 给 糖果果 发送悄悄话 糖果果 的博客首页 (0 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 19:19:39

"Internet+ Google"? -career- 给 career 发送悄悄话 (21352 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 19:23:09

道路是曲折的,前途是光明的。几个月前看到过一篇报道湾区有家 -加州阳光123- 给 加州阳光123 发送悄悄话 加州阳光123 的博客首页 (91 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 19:13:42

道理是曲折的,钱途是光明的? -哲仁布措- 给 哲仁布措 发送悄悄话 (0 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 19:21:37

人还是比较适应于comfort zone, 但变化是趋势,会有阵痛,也可能会伤及某些行业, -加州阳光123- 给 加州阳光123 发送悄悄话 加州阳光123 的博客首页 (29 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 19:26:15

9494 -哲仁布措- 给 哲仁布措 发送悄悄话 (0 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 19:28:08

" 自己写的code,给自己看病最放心, 嗯。 " -career- 给 career 发送悄悄话 (211 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 19:18:06

同意。。。一手写AI code挣钱,一手不需要医生省钱。。。太棒了~ -糖果果- 给 糖果果 发送悄悄话 糖果果 的博客首页 (0 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 19:27:16

不同意,自己写的code知道会有多少BUG,不敢用阿 -哲仁布措- 给 哲仁布措 发送悄悄话 (0 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 19:31:02

;-) -糖果果- 给 糖果果 发送悄悄话 糖果果 的博客首页 (0 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 19:33:51

省钱阿..."光麻醉一项就三千多" -career- 给 career 发送悄悄话 (411 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 19:38:22

为什么自己写的code 会有很多bug? -加州阳光123- 给 加州阳光123 发送悄悄话 加州阳光123 的博客首页 (0 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 19:41:42

如果你悲观点,会认为大的系统如Windows都不会工作,她有成千上万的BUG。 -哲仁布措- 给 哲仁布措 发送悄悄话 (0 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 19:48:35

差别是,windows每天crash几次都没什么大不了的,自己或家人有误诊的可能 哪怕一次都受不了啊 -糖果果- 给 糖果果 发送悄悄话 糖果果 的博客首页 (0 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 19:51:44

就是阿,所以才不敢用呢。 -哲仁布措- 给 哲仁布措 发送悄悄话 (0 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 19:53:43

说得好像医生不误诊似的 LOL -白色非色- 给 白色非色 发送悄悄话 白色非色 的博客首页 (0 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 21:02:06

我写过code,我水平挺臭了,同意这句;) -糖果果- 给 糖果果 发送悄悄话 糖果果 的博客首页 (0 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 19:49:06

偶现在先学习着 ,还望高手们多多指教:) -加州阳光123- 给 加州阳光123 发送悄悄话 加州阳光123 的博客首页 (0 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 19:52:01

客气客气,这里都是灌水高手。LOL -哲仁布措- 给 哲仁布措 发送悄悄话 (0 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 19:57:39

第一,任何写软件的人都知道这只是bug,第二,其实立法最有效,要不咋自动飞行介么多年了,飞机师的工资 -白色非色- 给 白色非色 发送悄悄话 白色非色 的博客首页 (426 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 19:26:22

飞行员的工资哪里有只升不降?!这点是错误信息。。。oops,我歪楼了~ -糖果果- 给 糖果果 发送悄悄话 糖果果 的博客首页 (0 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 19:29:23

Autopilot 是最早广泛使用的AI之一,这么说你明白了吧。所以现在嘲笑医生Al的 -白色非色- 给 白色非色 发送悄悄话 白色非色 的博客首页 (89 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 19:31:38

没法明白你的逻辑啊。autopilot这多年了,还是每架飞机都有飞行员。你这到底在证明什么;)) -糖果果- 给 糖果果 发送悄悄话 糖果果 的博客首页 (0 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 19:36:37

因为立法要求呀,所以医生大概也会是这样的,所以医生会有活干,但 -白色非色- 给 白色非色 发送悄悄话 白色非色 的博客首页 (46 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 19:38:09

没有立法要求的话,你愿意飞不用飞行员的飞机?!。。。你胆子比我大! -糖果果- 给 糖果果 发送悄悄话 糖果果 的博客首页 (0 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 19:40:10

即使miracle on the Hudson 那一次,如果纯用autopilot 结果会不会更好尚有争议呢,那个还是正结果, -白色非色- 给 白色非色 发送悄悄话 白色非色 的博客首页 (110 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 20:19:56

立法要求Congressmen do it first? -career- 给 career 发送悄悄话 (211 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 19:41:15

"只是bug" vs. "This product is a piece of s—," -career- 给 career 发送悄悄话 (843 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 19:33:30

当年的马车还比蒸气机快呢 LOL -白色非色- 给 白色非色 发送悄悄话 白色非色 的博客首页 (249 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 19:35:01

犀利 -哲仁布措- 给 哲仁布措 发送悄悄话 (0 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 19:39:30

比喻不适用,医疗诊断的复杂程度跟蒸汽机不是一个宇宙空间的 -糖果果- 给 糖果果 发送悄悄话 糖果果 的博客首页 (0 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 19:44:45

"医生要和Al一较高下": 'unsafe and incorrect' cancer treatments, STAT re -career- 给 career 发送悄悄话 (585 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 19:47:25

AI才刚起步。 -哲仁布措- 给 哲仁布措 发送悄悄话 (0 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 19:49:50

...from the 1980s. -career- 给 career 发送悄悄话 (217 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 19:54:54

医生from 1980 BC. LOL. -哲仁布措- 给 哲仁布措 发送悄悄话 (0 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 19:56:29

就是阿,所以才不敢用呢。 - 哲仁布措 - -career- 给 career 发送悄悄话 (205 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 20:03:53

医生总会是那个最后签字的。AI将来会减少医生数量。 -哲仁布措- 给 哲仁布措 发送悄悄话 (0 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 20:06:54

减少?! "皮肤科医生就是挣得多,还很难约到。" -career- 给 career 发送悄悄话 (1016 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 20:14:06

IBM 吹NB大王比较多。 -衡山老道- 给 衡山老道 发送悄悄话 衡山老道 的博客首页 (0 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 20:09:22

AI取代大部分医生,应该是50年内的事。 -衡山老道- 给 衡山老道 发送悄悄话 衡山老道 的博客首页 (0 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 20:11:59

应该不用那么久 -白色非色- 给 白色非色 发送悄悄话 白色非色 的博客首页 (0 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 20:14:20

搬教导那四台电脑应该不用那么$$$... -career- 给 career 发送悄悄话 (232 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 20:28:55

你是说要250?LOL -白色非色- 给 白色非色 发送悄悄话 白色非色 的博客首页 (0 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 20:34:27

$5800... -career- 给 career 发送悄悄话 (7131 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 20:39:13

最后教导不是用了老中末?世界就是一个供求平衡而已,要不为何现在手工制作的不便宜呀 -白色非色- 给 白色非色 发送悄悄话 白色非色 的博客首页 (0 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 20:58:28

手工制作的不便宜呀--"你这到底在证明什么"? -career- 给 career 发送悄悄话 (405 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 21:11:10

你说呢? -白色非色- 给 白色非色 发送悄悄话 白色非色 的博客首页 (0 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 21:13:01

砍一棵树应该不用那么$$$... -career- 给 career 发送悄悄话 (0 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 20:41:07

IBM那玩意也能算是AI?你知道医生误诊率是多少吗? -未知- 给 未知 发送悄悄话 未知 的博客首页 (152 bytes) () 07/25/2018 postreply 23:51:38

IBM AI 项目很贵的。跟MD Anderson Cancer Center 合作要价62M, 2-30M 花了什么也没见着。 -philipzm246- 给 philipzm246 发送悄悄话 (0 bytes) () 07/26/2018 postreply 07:14:05

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