应该读一下伯克利教授研究藤校限制犹太人历史而写的书。那是亚裔的翻版,唯一差异是这内部掌握配额在各校是随心所欲,而现在是趋同。

来源: mmmwww 2015-06-13 06:31:03 [] [旧帖] [给我悄悄话] 本文已被阅读: 次 (7593 bytes)

应该读一下伯克利教授研究藤校限制犹太人历史而写的书。那是亚裔的翻版,唯一的差异是这内部掌握配额在各校是随心所欲,而现在是趋同。

 

How Harvard, Princeton, Yale Restricted Jews, Smarties, Blacks


Dec. 30 (Bloomberg) -- ``The Chosen: The Hidden History of Admission and Exclusion at Harvard, Yale, and Princeton'' (Houghton Mifflin, 711 pages, $28) is filled with surprising insights into how student selection evolved at the ``Big Three.''

In researching changing admission standards during the past century, Jerome Karabel, a professor of sociology at the University of California, Berkeley, found that institutions began using ``character'' as a way to supplement academic criteria and screen out brainy Jews and immigrants. The intent was to establish the ``latitude to admit the dull sons of major donors'' and redefine ``merit.''

Karabel spoke with Robin Schatz on the phone.

Schatz: What surprised you most in the course of your research?

Karabel: I had begun with the notion that the admission of women was a response to the feminist movement, and as I looked more carefully into the documents, it became apparent that this was really not true. That in fact, the decision to move toward co-education predated the rise of modern feminism, and the primary moving force was the desire to compete. That is, to get the best boys.

Yale and Princeton, in particular, thought they would lose more and more students to Harvard and, increasingly, Stanford; so, in order to get the best men, they needed to admit women.

Schatz: What else?

Limiting Jews

Karabel: I think another big surprise was that Harvard in particular but also Yale had, in essence, what you might consider a quota on the number of students who were intellectuals or admitted entirely on academic brilliance and that that quota was around 10 percent.

In one year, for example, of the 150 most brilliant applicants out of around 10,000, at that time, they still rejected 20 or 30, basically, because they disliked them on personal grounds.

Schatz: You write that admissions changed to a merit-based system in the 1920s as a way to limit Jewish enrollments. How so?

Karabel: Harvard, Yale and Princeton, up until the very early 1920s, had an exam-based system of admission. If you passed you were admitted. If you failed you were turned away. If you were in the gray zone, then they might admit you on conditions but basically, if you passed, regardless of your social background, you would be admitted.

Leadership, Character

That was precisely why the system was judged to be no longer viable because too many of the wrong students, the ``undesirable'' students -- that is, predominantly, Jewish students of East European background -- started to pass the exams.

So an entirely new system of admissions was invented with emphasis on such things as character, leadership, personality, alumni parentage, athletic ability, geographical diversity. They started, for the first time, to do interviews. They introduced photos. A lot of things, which we take for granted today, in fact, were introduced in this period and have endured to the present.

Schatz: What happened to Jewish admissions as a result?

Imposing Quotas

Karabel: Well, at Harvard, the Jewish proportion of the freshmen class in 1925 had reached 28 percent and shortly thereafter, after a very protracted and bitter struggle, which lasted from 1922 really to 1926, Harvard imposed a 15 percent quota. At Yale, the proportion of Jews had reached toward 14 percent and in 1924, they imposed a 10 percent quota. At Princeton where the proportion of Jews had gotten only to 3.6 percent, they decided that that was excessive and they cut the proportion of Jews to 2 percent in 1924. That's in contrast to African Americans, who were totally excluded from Princeton until 1945.

Schatz: How did the race riots of the 1960s influence admissions?

Karabel: You had, in the Ivy League as a whole, almost a doubling of blacks in the single year between 1968 and 1969, and that was the year when over 100 cities rioted in the wake of Martin Luther King's assassination. And that sort of jolted, I think, the nation's elite into feeling that they could not continue to do business as usual but that the racial strife might lead to the unraveling of the entire social order.

FDR, Yes; Bush, No

Schatz: Would Franklin Delano Roosevelt have gotten into Harvard or George W. Bush have gotten into Yale in 2005?

Karabel: FDR was certainly not an academic whiz, but he was a solid student. Now, George W. Bush, that's a different matter. In his secondary school, which was Andover, a well-known private school, he had never made the honor roll even once and he did not have any particularly distinguished extracurricular talent either, so he was the kind of student who, were it not for his family background, would, I'd say, have essentially no chance of being admitted to Yale.

Schatz: What are the biggest admissions challenges still facing Harvard, Yale and Princeton?

Another Kind of Diversity

Karabel: The biggest challenge today is around not the issue of race or religion or gender but around the issue of socioeconomic or class diversity,

These schools still draw roughly half their students from that segment of the American population that can pay the $45,000 or so a year, and that's only about the top 5 percent of the population, and they have radical under-representation from really the lower half of the socioeconomic spectrum.

Schatz: A whole industry has grown up to help get kids into elite colleges. Are admissions just going to keep getting tighter at the Big Three?

Karabel: In the book, I say that these schools have, almost against their will, been more successful in democratizing anxiety than opportunity because anxiety, now, extends to the highest segments of the elite.

Even the people at the very top of the system are not at all sure that they'll be able to get their children into one of these schools -- and they're right.

Ivy League Mystique

Schatz: Given all the excellent colleges in the country, why does this mystique about the Ivy League persist?

Karabel: There are about 2,000 four-year colleges and universities, and there are under 150 that admit fewer than half their applicants. Harvard, Yale and Princeton and, for that matter Berkeley, are heavily over-represented in the American elite, but it still remains the case that the majority of people who have succeeded in America have not gone to these institutions.

Schatz: So, should parents lighten up?

Karabel: Parents should definitely lighten up. But it's very hard to do because there are all these factors encouraging people to be anxious and insecure. I would say, as a sociologist, that there's an element of reality in America that underlies this. If you succeed your rewards are unparalleled, precisely because America is such an unequal society. If you fail, it's a much more serious thing than if you fail in, let's say Sweden or France.

所有跟帖: 

中国人犹太人可比性实在不多 -weston- 给 weston 发送悄悄话 weston 的博客首页 (0 bytes) () 06/13/2015 postreply 08:32:14

这里是就事论事。此事之外能否比较也要看七八十年后。毕竟华人犹太人几千年历史是可比的,不可比的是这一二百年。 -mmmwww- 给 mmmwww 发送悄悄话 (0 bytes) () 06/13/2015 postreply 08:43:49

他们不需要等七八十年就已经有爱因斯坦, 弗洛伊德等等. -weston- 给 weston 发送悄悄话 weston 的博客首页 (25 bytes) () 06/13/2015 postreply 09:04:35

不用琢磨。几千年都是可比,用不着计较现在是八十年还是一二百年。华人近一二百年的处境无法跟犹太人比。 -mmmwww- 给 mmmwww 发送悄悄话 (0 bytes) () 06/13/2015 postreply 09:20:05

是你先说等七八十年. -weston- 给 weston 发送悄悄话 weston 的博客首页 (0 bytes) () 06/13/2015 postreply 09:20:42

目前的趋势的确看不出。说八十年的意思是,有目前在美华人人口基数,过二三代也许能看出有无再入可比较的行列。 -mmmwww- 给 mmmwww 发送悄悄话 (0 bytes) () 06/13/2015 postreply 09:31:18

但是我们有责任为后代争取公平争取机会。 -mmmwww- 给 mmmwww 发送悄悄话 (0 bytes) () 06/13/2015 postreply 09:35:23

你对公平的理解, 基于下面那样杜撰的数字来支持, -weston- 给 weston 发送悄悄话 weston 的博客首页 (18 bytes) () 06/13/2015 postreply 10:08:34

发“杜撰”同时,应该附有证据。 -mmmwww- 给 mmmwww 发送悄悄话 (0 bytes) () 06/13/2015 postreply 10:57:29

什么眼神? "? 犹裔一样要得多,犹裔人口2%现占H的30%" -weston- 给 weston 发送悄悄话 weston 的博客首页 (0 bytes) () 06/13/2015 postreply 11:03:40

"more than 30% of the students at Harvard, are Jewish" -mmmwww- 给 mmmwww 发送悄悄话 (4983 bytes) () 06/13/2015 postreply 11:31:45

顶! -飞*星- 给 飞*星 发送悄悄话 (0 bytes) () 06/13/2015 postreply 12:36:26

你还好意思引用这种破文?"The most important criteria is actually race/religi -weston- 给 weston 发送悄悄话 weston 的博客首页 (20 bytes) () 06/13/2015 postreply 13:26:17

即使我引用了“破文”,那也不是我“杜撰”。请保持点尊严,你应该做的是引用不破的文,别用赖皮撒泼手段。 -mmmwww- 给 mmmwww 发送悄悄话 (0 bytes) () 06/13/2015 postreply 13:53:29

你的尊严 ~引用的文章 -weston- 给 weston 发送悄悄话 weston 的博客首页 (0 bytes) () 06/13/2015 postreply 14:38:45

即使你引的25%有影响我的犹裔本科H大于其人口十几倍的结论吗?你这样无理指责他人编造数据,又东拉西扯胡搅,不觉得斯文扫地吗? -mmmwww- 给 mmmwww 发送悄悄话 (0 bytes) () 06/13/2015 postreply 16:13:13

你难得承认自己数字不正确. 你不是学科学出身的. 鼻子插蒜拿数字来唬人. 很斯文! -weston- 给 weston 发送悄悄话 weston 的博客首页 (0 bytes) () 06/13/2015 postreply 18:17:06

你的意思他人已经表达过 -weston- 给 weston 发送悄悄话 weston 的博客首页 (177 bytes) () 06/13/2015 postreply 10:10:12

你已经失控。 -mmmwww- 给 mmmwww 发送悄悄话 (0 bytes) () 06/13/2015 postreply 11:05:11

你的"轻佻"语言才是错乱. 自误身份, 错当成二八少女 -weston- 给 weston 发送悄悄话 weston 的博客首页 (0 bytes) () 06/13/2015 postreply 13:28:31

顺便提一下,虽然很反感这种99%怎么样的极端语言,但H的3971Graduates里犹太人是2500占63%(2015)。 -mmmwww- 给 mmmwww 发送悄悄话 (0 bytes) () 06/13/2015 postreply 12:09:03

哈佛大学岂止 3971Graduates? 你少了基本常识 -weston- 给 weston 发送悄悄话 weston 的博客首页 (0 bytes) () 06/13/2015 postreply 13:42:40

你只能靠胡搅蛮缠了,这里的Graduates当然是指研究生院。 -mmmwww- 给 mmmwww 发送悄悄话 (0 bytes) () 06/13/2015 postreply 13:57:03

你自己去看哈佛研究生的定义. 你以为在说中国烟酒生? -weston- 给 weston 发送悄悄话 weston 的博客首页 (0 bytes) () 06/13/2015 postreply 15:08:49

特指犹裔在H的科研研究生占63%,不就是应对你觉得很有趣的“99%哈佛,诺贝尔就产生了”问题,跟烟酒生定义有搭界吗? -mmmwww- 给 mmmwww 发送悄悄话 (0 bytes) () 06/13/2015 postreply 15:59:44

你转移话题了. 这里说的是研究生定义. -weston- 给 weston 发送悄悄话 weston 的博客首页 (0 bytes) () 06/13/2015 postreply 18:19:38

当年跟现在还是不大一样的 --百科-- 给 -百科- 发送悄悄话 -百科- 的博客首页 (104 bytes) () 06/13/2015 postreply 08:53:38

犹裔一样要得多,犹裔人口2%现占H的30%是多十几倍。是有人口和学生比例与录取标准的内在矛盾。亚裔5%(无混血)占H20%(含混 -mmmwww- 给 mmmwww 发送悄悄话 (240 bytes) () 06/13/2015 postreply 09:14:10

Unz 都没你大胆, 他说了是 25%. 哥大统计教授(犹太裔的), 多年来驳斥过他多次. -weston- 给 weston 发送悄悄话 weston 的博客首页 (0 bytes) () 06/13/2015 postreply 09:20:08

下面有人说,H需要有社会责任感的人。就只这个想法就全无社会责任感,哈哈哈:) --百科-- 给 -百科- 发送悄悄话 -百科- 的博客首页 (0 bytes) () 06/13/2015 postreply 09:23:45

真正的社会责任感很难在高中身上体现 -萧紫箬- 给 萧紫箬 发送悄悄话 (223 bytes) () 06/13/2015 postreply 09:30:35

同意后一半,不同意前一半,真正有社会责任感的高中生还是有的。 --百科-- 给 -百科- 发送悄悄话 -百科- 的博客首页 (0 bytes) () 06/13/2015 postreply 09:57:47

看看犹太人的教授在打藤里有多少? 如果大藤毕业后都去做IB了,你就不能埋怨没人给你立牌坊 -85858585- 给 85858585 发送悄悄话 (0 bytes) () 06/13/2015 postreply 09:24:40

犹太人去IB的也不少吧:) --百科-- 给 -百科- 发送悄悄话 -百科- 的博客首页 (0 bytes) () 06/13/2015 postreply 09:26:03

IB就是犹太人开的。 -edison11- 给 edison11 发送悄悄话 edison11 的博客首页 (0 bytes) () 06/13/2015 postreply 14:11:21

人家两边都站, 其中一边还是人家开的 -85858585- 给 85858585 发送悄悄话 (0 bytes) () 06/13/2015 postreply 16:51:21

也比比犹太人,中国人在各个领域里,对人类的贡献吧,山寨不算 -Narnar- 给 Narnar 发送悄悄话 (0 bytes) () 06/13/2015 postreply 11:26:07

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