forum.incrediblecharts.com:caution against buying at apparent in

http://forum.incrediblecharts.com/messages/23/584810.html


Dug

Your preferred short term version of VWAP is fine with me and yes I agree that the key is running totals of Value and Volume to support the calculation

Re simple moving average I am told that its one disadvantage is that if a large and unusual day affects the average in one direction it affects the simple moving average in the OPPOSITE direction when it drops out "X" days later, where "X" is the number of days used in the simple moving average

My understanding is that weighted and exponential overcome this particular defect

Since VWAP itself is a weighted average using volume, applying further weighting may be a waste of effort

All appeals to keep things simple fall easily upon my ears and if simple can be done sooner compared to complex then I am all ears

I am very interested to see how VWAP diverges from other moving average indicators .. especially if VWAP moves down on days when the close is up, or if VWAP moves up when the close is down

That would really tell us something about the underlying management of the price, compared with possible manipulated closes ... especially if the difference was consistent and regular ... eg if every Friday the market close was pushed up while VWAP was down?

It could also offer a caution against buying at apparent intra-day highs where VWAP was consistently below such highs?

Or indicate hidden buying strength if VWAP was consistently close to/above the close?

Perhaps you have other uses in mind as well

With Best Wishes

Hilarius


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VWAP
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dug

Member

Username: dug

Post Number: 209
Registered: 07-2005

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0


Monday, August 29, 2005 - 08:00 pm:


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Hi Colin,Robin
This topic was gone into awhile ago but I think the thread is archived and locked.
So I'm asking you as a data client of the ASX if you can advise if historical Dollar turnover daily in each share is available to the General Public.
As historical daily Volume is available,all that is needed for a VWAP indicator is the total daily Dollars 'spent',turned over,in each share.

My own thinking on VWAP is it may be useful in wide ATR trading shares and/or strong trending ones.I think in these cases,one may find a significant divergence from Closing price.I see it as a short termer[30/60 days] and I'm unsure of whether it should be fixed as a provided figure for a week/month or be a dynamic moving average,expedential/simple but I do think in some cases VWAP would provide a 'finer' figure than applying all volume to the Closing Price.

The most sophisticated use I've seen of VWAP is in justifying premiums on Takeover Offers ie the 'predator' states "This is a 30% premium on the last month's trading VWAP"etc.

Furthermore I feel this may just be a 'Bell 'n' Whistle' factor that could separate IC chart package from other AlsoRans,though I doubt it's patentable,but IC could be First and give you an Edge,as they say.
Anyway,it all boils down to whether that historical $ turnover info is available.If you know where do ya get it?post in Integrated thread so the computer whizzoze can check it out!
regards,
John


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dug

Member

Username: dug

Post Number: 280
Registered: 07-2005

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0


Monday, September 12, 2005 - 07:25 pm:


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I realise you've been busy with more important matters than another indicator called VWAP.
But,well,I just fear for my grammar talking direct to the ASX.I'm terrified they'll say "Yeah you can get it .The Dollar Sale Value Total for the All Ords.It's x bucks"like I'd balk at $5 and I think the ASX wouldn't want to know about my 'ground breaking' research and my request for a Grant.
So Colin/Robin next time your doing your ASX client negotiations ,will you ask where $$$ Value for EACH share [for preference]can be 'GOT',like another FREE site that has VALUE $ of each days TOTAL from transactions?
because I know YOU KNOW,C'n'R
VWAP is Volume Weighted Average Price and is calculated }div'eden-Total in Dollars Day SALES
by TOTAL of ### Transacted

and Volume Info is Available.Where's the DOLLARS?

regards,
John aka jr
;}










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ingot54

Member

Username: ingot54

Post Number: 771
Registered: 05-2004

Rating:
Votes: 4


Monday, September 12, 2005 - 08:51 pm:


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(Message edited by Ingot54 on September 12, 2005)


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Keep Smiling


hilarius

Member

Username: hilarius

Post Number: 1023
Registered: 04-2004

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0


Monday, September 12, 2005 - 08:54 pm:


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Good Evening

I regard VWAP as an extremely valuable indicator of the true underlying price for a day, week, or month

It is the actual weighted average price of trades processed and as such shows the true trend within the extremes of open, low, high and close

It is the real value indicator ... expressing the actual average price paid by the big end of town (main driver) and mums and dads (occasional co-drivers)

It cuts through all the noise of the market

I support the idea of a VWAP line being available on Incredible Charts, daily, weekly and monthly, as and when the development schedule permits

With Best Wishes

Hilarius


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I come in peace to share my thoughts and to shine my candle light on possible long term opportunities


colin_twiggs

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Username: colin_twiggs

Post Number: 2048
Registered: 09-2002

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Votes: 0


Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 10:58 am:


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Hilarius, Ingot & Dug,

I have asked our data suppliers whether they can provide Total Value Traded for individual stocks.

Regards, Colin




dug

Member

Username: dug

Post Number: 299
Registered: 07-2005

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0


Thursday, September 15, 2005 - 11:39 am:


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Had a thought,Colin.Don't worry it may save you Money!

Might be expensive to buy Historic Data.As much as I know,this to now has been 'Specialist Data';I'm wondering that if this is kept as only a 30days and below,indicator,well,just start up the data from Now and presto even in 10days you'll have something happening,and well,I vote for ANYTHING Happening! and ditch the need for Definitive,like who knows VWAP,what'll it do?show?give lookout for?
Anyhow,what I'm saying,Colin is find out if you can just START getting the dollar/indiv stock figures,even if only ASX and even kept to the ALL ORDS,and leave the real swamp to fester.
of course Colin TYT*-takeyatime.


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colin_twiggs

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Username: colin_twiggs

Post Number: 2063
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Thursday, September 15, 2005 - 04:19 pm:


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Dug,

Our data suppliers have informed us that they can supply us with market turnover for individual stocks; so we can calculate VWAP.
It will take a bit of time though because we need to adjust the IC compressed data format to include turnover.

Regards
Colin




dug

Member

Username: dug

Post Number: 304
Registered: 07-2005

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0


Thursday, September 15, 2005 - 05:22 pm:


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That's excellent news,Colin.Put it only in the Premium and all the wanna be rampers will HAVE to sign up[except for me that is,C make the rest PAY]
Today I did the VWAP on BTV-It'd heavily traded at 54 before closing at 53.VWAP=52.5 which confirms a strong resistance at 53 if you look at the chart and understand I'm dropping decimal points and zeros.
Now the other interesting thing with the VWAP is BTV is just under the 30SMA average price by close but Colin I'm taking bets it'd be what 5points maybe 10%ish under VWAP price by volume.
It'll be handy,valid Colin,you wait and remember my free version request,hey?
regards,
John.


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colin_twiggs

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Username: colin_twiggs

Post Number: 2064
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Thursday, September 15, 2005 - 05:50 pm:


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Thanks Dug,
I'll take a look.
This should make you enough money that you can afford the premium version.

Regards,
Colin




dug

Member

Username: dug

Post Number: 305
Registered: 07-2005

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Votes: 0


Thursday, September 15, 2005 - 06:14 pm:


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I'm pretty staunch on having it Free,Colin.About as staunch as I am on Quid pro Quo.
I might be able to get HC to go premio IllC,what i can do!
cheers,
jr


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dug

Member

Username: dug

Post Number: 370
Registered: 07-2005

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0


Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 12:10 pm:


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Some thoughts on VWAP,Colin.
I think it should be calculated Simple not exponentially[how ever it's spelt]
It is only Short Term say 30days Max.
I don't think 200day VWAP compared to a Moving Average will 'help'[could be wrong but]
I think in using it Short Term at least that it is based on Historical Price as in the Actual Buy/Sell prices in the days before not 'adjusted' for new issues etc as is currently befogging me with AUZ at the moment.[see General]

Anyway,I'm wondering if you,Colin,worked VWAP into the Twigg Money Flow if it might be a 'patentable'IC product?
I'm working out VWAP for use in d'Swamp of the penny-antes.It'd be real interesting if you,Colin,could get me some Back Figures of $$ daily turnover for AUZ,just the last 10 days would be pertinent.

How's getting VWAP IC goin'?
regards.


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msparks

Member

Username: msparks

Post Number: 213
Registered: 10-2004

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0


Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 03:24 pm:


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Hi DUG
Have you looked at volume by price.
Shows how many bought at what price level.
Perhaps not accurate enough to show the volume by decimal point move ? BUT shows most of the buys are over the 5 cent level.

Perhaps a better indicator than VWAP ?






dug

Member

Username: dug

Post Number: 371
Registered: 07-2005

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0


Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 04:13 pm:


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Hi msparks,
The problem is that the above Volume indicator is calculated only on closing price.That's what's used to classify it.
With wide ATR and or major buyers/sellers within the price range being thus 'ignored' in calculation,it becomes 'irrelevant' compared to VWAP which gives a Volume Weighted Average Price[VWAP],do you see it yet,MM?

When 'agents' like Investment Companies are acting for MAJOR clients say Packers or Pratts,they guarantee their buying to be VWAPped.Like MM these are not the tools currently available to dills like us who just put in relatively irrelevant bids,easily filled etc.
BUT I still believe a VWAP indicator may be very beneficial.
Perhaps we'd know more and be more positive if some Yank wrote a book about it?
Happy Trading,
jr


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colin_twiggs

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Username: colin_twiggs

Post Number: 2101
Registered: 09-2002

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Votes: 0


Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 03:27 pm:


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Dug,

We are busy working on indicators at present but VWAP may take more time as it requires an additional field to be added to the data signal: daily Turnover.

Regards,
Colin




dug

Member

Username: dug

Post Number: 387
Registered: 07-2005

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0


Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 11:18 am:


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I'm sure VWAP is one of your top priorities ,Colin.
Any chance of finding out a Free Site for historical Turnover figures?Would you ask the ASX if it is available for at least some shares?
I'm pottering around with AUZ VWAP at the moment,just for interest and as time permits, but I'd like to find a wider ranging ATR share to work on.Any suggestions?

regards,
John.


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colin_twiggs

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Username: colin_twiggs

Post Number: 2115
Registered: 09-2002

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Votes: 0


Monday, October 03, 2005 - 11:22 am:


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Dug,
I can't think of a free site that provides this info. Perhaps someone on the forum can help.

Regards
Colin




glenn

Member

Username: glenn

Post Number: 51
Registered: 11-2005

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0


Saturday, January 14, 2006 - 07:00 pm:


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Dug,

There is an online provider offering VWAP prices for free (only for the previous day I think). I can't find the bookmark here, I may have it at work.

Will get back to you monday. But agree, still dying to see it in IC


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Smrt-trader


dug

Member

Username: dug

Post Number: 652
Registered: 07-2005

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0


Saturday, January 14, 2006 - 07:59 pm:


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Greetings Glenn,
the trick is in short term averaging of VWAP.Like a single day?well i can do that!! in a share I'm interested in.

I thought this Brand New Day of instant calculation over time?ie by computers.
Well would save us all that 'elitism' of doing it ourselves and thinking "Woopee I got an EDGE!!'
but it seems it takes up too much Memory or such Palaver soooooooooooooo we're left with =WHAT IT CLOSES AT!!
dats d'Important thing=d'Ding that HAS to ring ya bell.

I might as well stick wid d'OLDE World of DIY VWAP.

i ain't OUT THERE to con-vince that VWAP is the up 'n'coming INDICATOR for d'Modern entrepreneur.
me? i just KNOW dat it[VWAP] will be...like when d'TechnoCrats catch up with it? an ANGLE!!
cheers glenn,
you as an adherent does an ol'ratbag GOOD.
jr
aka dug


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redbellie

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Username: redbellie

Post Number: 27
Registered: 04-2005

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0


Sunday, January 15, 2006 - 09:39 am:


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http://stocknessmonster.com/

Enter the stock in the box on the left and pick "Trades" on the drop down menu.




dug

Member

Username: dug

Post Number: 654
Registered: 07-2005

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0


Sunday, January 15, 2006 - 12:21 pm:


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Greetings redbellie,
The search is for a Moving Average VWAP.It requires a daily $ turnover figure retention so that Total Dollars of transactions is divided by Total Volume Number and then run progressively on a say 5/12/21 day basis.
This would be more accurate than any closing price calculated Moving Average.

I figure it would be most useful in shares that are regularly doing Wide ATR.These would give a VWAP indication divergent 'significantly percent wise' away from Closing Price.
The other day BTV closed at 6.4.
it'd ATR 67/58[from memory the candle did that within a gap]and the VWAP daily was 6.0.This is a 7%ish divergence.It shows a Lot of Volume went LOW,much more than stretched into >6.5+.Do you think that'd be Useful stuff to know,redbellie?

When I can get happening again,I reckon VWAP with Market Depth is my Buy Strategy basis.You just have to see VOLUME as key to indicating.
Anyhow,VWAP ya later.
jr


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hilarius

Member

Username: hilarius

Post Number: 1483
Registered: 04-2004

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0


Sunday, January 15, 2006 - 03:06 pm:


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Good Afternoon

I absolutely completely totally support Dug's ongoing campaign for a moving average VWAP with choice of time periods and moving average type (simple, weighted, exponential)

It would be pleasing to view and be able to copy and retain the data going into the calculation

An hourly moving average VWAP would be fun too

I am utterly convinced that VWAP shows the real underlying strength of upward and downward price moves

At the risk of repeating myself, I am utterly totally completely and absolutely convinced

What more can I say?

Hilarius


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I come in peace to share my thoughts and to shine my candle light on possible long term opportunities


dug

Member

Username: dug

Post Number: 656
Registered: 07-2005

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0


Sunday, January 15, 2006 - 09:44 pm:


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Thanks for d'Support,Hilarius but i have a point re your understanding of Moving Average VWAP.
It can only be done by running totals of Total Dollars and Total Volume.It can't[IMHO] be exponential or weighted only a simple running total so $ is divided by # over the set days.
I think it is only really useful over say 30days max.Not much value in 150/200 VWAP,by my rekconing.

From the little I've read on VWAP i've found
a] It's a Professional Tool of Institutions for 'orderly' buying and selling.It probably directs the Micro parcel 'scam'[See Systems]
b] It is used in Takeover pricing as in "Our offer is 32% above the preceeding months VWAP" = it's reasonable.
and c]That David Tweed uses VWAP when he's commenting on the Market Manoeuvres of others.

It's all pretty scketchy,I agree but if one could find access to the $ value of each days transactions?well one could get into it.
Just,well,don't set Colin d'Task of providing years of $transaction values.I don't think Long Term is enhanced by VWAP.
I'm for convincing Colin to just START with the provision of $ day transactions and in 5-30 days,IC,we May be able to use VWAP as an indicator.I'd be interested to see if Retraces for example may be VWAP 'enhanced'/predicted.

anyhow,I'm off to move to Bundaberg this week so it may be a month before I'm back so I'll leave you Hilarius to try and get from dat Cap'n Chuckles an Actual Working Chart of his tips.Such much d'scallywag be Charlie,hey?

Happy Trading,
jr


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hilarius

Member

Username: hilarius

Post Number: 1485
Registered: 04-2004

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0


Monday, January 16, 2006 - 02:49 am:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dug

Your preferred short term version of VWAP is fine with me and yes I agree that the key is running totals of Value and Volume to support the calculation

Re simple moving average I am told that its one disadvantage is that if a large and unusual day affects the average in one direction it affects the simple moving average in the OPPOSITE direction when it drops out "X" days later, where "X" is the number of days used in the simple moving average

My understanding is that weighted and exponential overcome this particular defect

Since VWAP itself is a weighted average using volume, applying further weighting may be a waste of effort

All appeals to keep things simple fall easily upon my ears and if simple can be done sooner compared to complex then I am all ears

I am very interested to see how VWAP diverges from other moving average indicators .. especially if VWAP moves down on days when the close is up, or if VWAP moves up when the close is down

That would really tell us something about the underlying management of the price, compared with possible manipulated closes ... especially if the difference was consistent and regular ... eg if every Friday the market close was pushed up while VWAP was down?

It could also offer a caution against buying at apparent intra-day highs where VWAP was consistently below such highs?

Or indicate hidden buying strength if VWAP was consistently close to/above the close?

Perhaps you have other uses in mind as well

With Best Wishes

Hilarius


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I come in peace to share my thoughts and to shine my candle light on possible long term opportunities


hilarius

Member

Username: hilarius

Post Number: 1487
Registered: 04-2004

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0


Monday, January 16, 2006 - 09:02 am:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Good Morning

Does anyone know where either or both of the following can be downloaded as a single daily file, showing all ASX stocks individually?

(1) VWAP ... for each stock

(2) Total $ Value Traded ... for each stock

Answers gratefully received

Hilarius


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I come in peace to share my thoughts and to shine my candle light on possible long term opportunities


colin_twiggs

Member

Username: colin_twiggs

Post Number: 2345
Registered: 09-2002

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0


Monday, January 16, 2006 - 10:30 am:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dug, Hilarius

We have not ignored your request, but are waiting on a new data feed from our ASX data suppliers that will provide daily Turnover (and VWAP when T is divided by V).

Regards,
Colin




dug

Member

Username: dug

Post Number: 658
Registered: 07-2005

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0


Monday, January 16, 2006 - 11:31 am:


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Well done Colin,we can look forward to it.
Hilarius-I'll be off line shortly for at least a week.
I've noticed HSP's action today and think Healthscope may be perfect for ST VWAP averaging.Would you keep a record of $ transaction on a daily basis?HSP could be real illustrative.
cheers,
jr


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hilarius

Member

Username: hilarius

Post Number: 1489
Registered: 04-2004

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Votes: 0


Monday, January 16, 2006 - 11:31 am:


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Thanks Colin

That's great news

Hilarius


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I come in peace to share my thoughts and to shine my candle light on possible long term opportunities


w*****ennet

Member

Username: w*****ennet

Post Number: 79
Registered: 01-2003

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0


Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 03:26 pm:


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Hi Colin
With so many other improvements needed to upgrade your system to at least match the ever moving charting world I wonder how you have found the time to create an upgrade specially for a person who refuses to pay for the service. i quote ' I'm pretty staunch on having it Free,Colin.' posted in september. I have been paying for the service since the beginning and have seen very little in the way of improvements [for me that is]in that time i.e improving the scans. Maybe you can provide a list of the up coming improvements so i can evaluate the future use of your system.
Regards
w*****




dug

Member

Username: dug

Post Number: 671
Registered: 07-2005

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0


Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 05:25 pm:


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Greetings Mr Bennett,
I wouldn't normally interrupt your question to Colin but I checked your profile and found you're in Bundaberg and,well,I've just moved there!!
What a happy coincidence,hey?
I'd just like to point out that Colin has NOT introduced VWAP indicator.If you read the beginning posts,you'll find I actually proposed it[VWAP] be only for the Premium[Non-Free]package.So don't chuck a cow,Mr B.You haven't been Ignored.
Why don't you pose a question in Systems,maybe,about IC scanning techniques?What you do and what you wish to do?That may elicit some tips,techniques for you?

Don't worry,as well as being for Free,I'm not big on Groups much either so I won't be looking to do d"recruit for Bundy Traders Meetings!!
cheers Mr Bennett.You're in Bundy,you don't have to keep yer shirt on!!
jr


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hilarius

Member

Username: hilarius

Post Number: 1501
Registered: 04-2004

Rating:
Votes: 1


Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 05:55 pm:


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W*****

I am a premium subscriber and I fully support Dug in his quest for VWAP

I can not think of another indicator that more clearly illustrates the underlying truth about a stock price

Do you have another?

With Best Wishes

Hilarius


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I come in peace to share my thoughts and to shine my candle light on possible long term opportunities


colin_twiggs

Member

Username: colin_twiggs

Post Number: 2353
Registered: 09-2002

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0


Monday, January 23, 2006 - 12:07 pm:


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WJB,
VWAP is a useful indicator and has been requested by a number of users. I did mention earlier that we plan to regularly survey members in order to establish development priorities.

We are working on Fibonacci/drawing tools at present and plan to tackle indicators and stock screens thereafter. We are also making progress on new data feeds and intra-day charts.

Regards,
Colin



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w*****ennet

Member

Username: w*****ennet

Post Number: 80
Registered: 01-2003

Rating: N/A
Votes: 0


Monday, January 23, 2006 - 06:37 pm:


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Hi All

Thankyou for your replies, colin this may be in the wrong place so feel free to do what you want with it.
As i stated the improvements Quote:[for me that is] i would like may not suit others as different people have different ideas.
Dug
Welcome to bundy, it is a nice place, a little humid at this time of year but i am sure you will like it. Just to clear up a couple of matters the changes i was referring to for scanning relate to things like being able to print the scan results and a few more variables to be able to customize your scans a little more [i do not need help understanding them] and the Fibonacci/drawing tools that colin mentioned
Hilarius
I enjoy reading your posts, they are always well thought out and this indicator may very well be very good but quite a few of the original posters on this forum with a lot of long term experiance have gone away from indicators all together and trade on price action and support, resistance and trendlines but no one is right and no one is wrong it all depends on the person and their way of doing things. Just for the record i still use some indicators but not as many as i used to.
Colin
i thank you for a very good product and wish you the best of luck in improving it for the benefit of everyone.
After my above post some may wonder why i dont post more often, the answer is simple i work 7 days a week so i have little time and i have to use it very carefully
wishing you all a good trading year and if i may steal a line from you Hilarius 'i come in peace'
regards
w*****




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