我的两位美国同事在lunch时针对教育以及中国孩子等议题，进行了一番天马行空的“胡扯”。 下面，是我根据当时我所“偷听”的对话而作的尽可能是那么回事的整理。
AAAAA：Man we do need to corrupt these new immigrant Chinese people. The work ethic is unreal. I hear stories about what these kids do to themselves to get the highest grades and it is eye opening. I know in time wealth and higher levels of comfort will do the trick, but at the moment these people are scary. MMMMM high school is about 80% Chinese and Indian Immigrants. I know I am seeing one of the high end maniacs in XXXXX (a chinese student), my neighbor's son. He's a good kid, but he works till 3am every night and even on weekends. He is ranked as #1 student in his class over there, but I cannot believe the relentless no breaks, approach.
I like the kid, but I'm glad I'm not his classmate.
BBBBB: You've probably heard the famous old syndrome, "Sophomore Slump", where kids knocked themselves out in high school getting the grades and getting into first class universities. But the reward for that is... more work, and stiffer competition. There will be a proportion of such kids that will burn out in the 2nd year of college (Sophomore) and crash and burn, getting bad grades and seriously losing motivation. Some will suffer severe depression, and some will suffer worse.
When aiming for eventual graduate work, either professional school or academic, it might be better to handle it as a marathon where you pace your run, rather than an all-out sprint at the beginning. Get good grades in high school, but enjoy life as a teenager. OK so you don't get 4.0, and maybe you end up in UC Santa Barbara or something like that. Then you continue to work hard at a reasonable pace, get consistently good undergraduate grades, and then you continue to attend good graduate schools. But you also enjoy life along the way.
You and I know, in the long run, the schools you attend help open doors initially, but long term, schools are less important.
I'm glad I'm not in the middle of the educational rat race any more, that's for sure.
AAAAA: Yeah, I think those chinese parents are lunatics. But my neighbor's son seems to enjoy what he is doing, though I'm not sure this is true at 3am. I admire his many accomplishments but I wonder if he's gonna burn out. Of course, I think MIT is a very good school. I've seen some really good people come out of there, but I've also seen a few clods. I think they deserve their ranking but I also think you can get a real good education at many universities. I buy into pretty much all of your attitudes. I guess one thing I've learned is that the historic way to get ahead in China (not under Mao) was to score high on the Civil service exam. This was not like the us civil service exam where they test to see if you can make change for a dollar and add 1+1 but a serious test of scholarship. With this in place for 1200 years the attitude on learning is pretty deeply rooted in the culture. Add to this the psychology of the immigrant, who feels naked in a strange land and it creates some monster academics. There is also the fact that in China your future is determined by a single end of HS test. One shot. Black July.
One thing that once my neighbor tells me is that those who are over here in the bay area from the big red machine tend to be the higher end types of people. This is at least slightly reassuring. I'm sure XXXXX (the chinese student) will get into MIT and a good grad school too. He'll likely be a professor of someplace or something like that. His interest is sort of in the area of the law.
BBBBB: Just to be sure, MIT/Stanford/Harvard/etc. admissions are fickle. About 15+ years ago, Prof RG Meyer had done a little consulting for us in building 90. He mentioned that 2000 straight A students applied for the Berkeley EE department, and 1500 got in. That meant 500 students with straight A's were given the thin envelope from Berkeley. I wonder how they handled that shocking development, "What the hell else do I have to do?"
So straight A's are not enough. This is sobering, but true. I hope your neighbor and his son are prepared for this remote, but real possibility. Odds are with him, however.
As for me, I never reached the stratosphere of academic nor corporate performance, but I've been happy with my life (aside from social problems, but that's an orthogonal issue). I always get less than perfect grades but essentially achieve my (modest) career goals. To me, the major skill I learned from schooling was not technical knowledge but the love and discipline of lifelong learning. We never stop the need to learn about new areas, whether it is politics, finances, or even how to renovate a garage. I certainly hope that in the quest for the 4.0 and MIT, the joy of lifelong learning will remain intact.
AAAAA: yeah, I remember those lunch conversations with Meyer. I too realize that it isn't straight grades. But my Chinese neighbor knows the ropes and he has put alot of effort into getting the scoop from people on how to stand out and he has really done the homework to position his son. I think he'll make it, he's got lots of stuff for the application besides just grades. Wins in debate and quiz ball contests. High level of proficiency with the piano and the like. My neghbor takes no prisoners, he has it wired. Like you, I wonder if the goal is really worth it all. But as Mohammed Ali said, Its a free country you can do what you want.
I like to read and enjoy learning, but I also like to have some choice in what I read. I don't want it all determined. I like to think about some new areas of science and math (new for me, not real new). I can be really happy with a book and a pencil and pad. Joy of discovery.
Seems to me that climbing the ladder at a place like HP really to some extent ended up being entering a lying contest. I never have cared for those whose most highly developed skill is distorting the achievements of their group and blowing the most snow around. I don't want to have lying mother ers like Snapp as my peers. Pat Byrne, Bill Sullivan etcetera, they arent quite as bad as snapp but they do distort stuff a fair bit.
BBBBB: After a few decades, I guess we get a tad cynical, but it's really based on experience. For managers, there is the appeal of a twenty something blindly listening to a manager's insane idea, and then working like hell 24/7 to make it happen, believing the story that they will save the company. Old dogs like us which nip back at the master's hand when we've been whacked several times as well as fed, well you know when there is an opportunity to put us on the list, oddly there are a lot of us on it.
AAAAA：Man we do need to corrupt these new immigrant Chinese people. The work ethic is unreal. I hear stories about what these kids do to themselves to get the highest grades and it is eye opening. I know in time wealth and higher levels of comfort will do the trick, but at the moment these people are scary. MMMMM high school is about 80% Chinese and Indian Immigrants. I know I am seeing one of the high end maniacs in XXXXX (a chinese student), my neighbor's son. He's a good kid, but he works till 3am every night and even on weekends. He is ranked as #1 student in his class over there, but I cannot believe the relentless no breaks, approach.
I like the kid, but I'm glad I'm not his classmate.
BBBBB: You've probably heard the famous old syndrome, "Sophomore Slump", where kids knocked themselves out in high school getting the grades and getting into first class universities. But the reward for that is... more work, and stiffer competition. There will be a proportion of such kids that will burn out in the 2nd year of college (Sophomore) and crash and burn, getting bad grades and seriously losing motivation. Some will suffer severe depression, and some will suffer worse.
When aiming for eventual graduate work, either professional school or academic, it might be better to handle it as a marathon where you pace your run, rather than an all-out sprint at the beginning. Get good grades in high school, but enjoy life as a teenager. OK so you don't get 4.0, and maybe you end up in UC Santa Barbara or something like that. Then you continue to work hard at a reasonable pace, get consistently good undergraduate grades, and then you continue to attend good graduate schools. But you also enjoy life along the way.
You and I know, in the long run, the schools you attend help open doors initially, but long term, schools are less important.
I'm glad I'm not in the middle of the educational rat race any more, that's for sure.
AAAAA: Yeah, I think those chinese parents are lunatics. But my neighbor's son seems to enjoy what he is doing, though I'm not sure this is true at 3am. I admire his many accomplishments but I wonder if he's gonna burn out. Of course, I think MIT is a very good school. I've seen some really good people come out of there, but I've also seen a few clods. I think they deserve their ranking but I also think you can get a real good education at many universities. I buy into pretty much all of your attitudes. I guess one thing I've learned is that the historic way to get ahead in China (not under Mao) was to score high on the Civil service exam. This was not like the us civil service exam where they test to see if you can make change for a dollar and add 1+1 but a serious test of scholarship. With this in place for 1200 years the attitude on learning is pretty deeply rooted in the culture. Add to this the psychology of the immigrant, who feels naked in a strange land and it creates some monster academics. There is also the fact that in China your future is determined by a single end of HS test. One shot. Black July.
One thing that once my neighbor tells me is that those who are over here in the bay area from the big red machine tend to be the higher end types of people. This is at least slightly reassuring. I'm sure XXXXX (the chinese student) will get into MIT and a good grad school too. He'll likely be a professor of someplace or something like that. His interest is sort of in the area of the law.
BBBBB: Just to be sure, MIT/Stanford/Harvard/etc. admissions are fickle. About 15+ years ago, Prof RG Meyer had done a little consulting for us in building 90. He mentioned that 2000 straight A students applied for the Berkeley EE department, and 1500 got in. That meant 500 students with straight A's were given the thin envelope from Berkeley. I wonder how they handled that shocking development, "What the hell else do I have to do?"
So straight A's are not enough. This is sobering, but true. I hope your neighbor and his son are prepared for this remote, but real possibility. Odds are with him, however.
As for me, I never reached the stratosphere of academic nor corporate performance, but I've been happy with my life (aside from social problems, but that's an orthogonal issue). I always get less than perfect grades but essentially achieve my (modest) career goals. To me, the major skill I learned from schooling was not technical knowledge but the love and discipline of lifelong learning. We never stop the need to learn about new areas, whether it is politics, finances, or even how to renovate a garage. I certainly hope that in the quest for the 4.0 and MIT, the joy of lifelong learning will remain intact.
AAAAA: yeah, I remember those lunch conversations with Meyer. I too realize that it isn't straight grades. But my Chinese neighbor knows the ropes and he has put alot of effort into getting the scoop from people on how to stand out and he has really done the homework to position his son. I think he'll make it, he's got lots of stuff for the application besides just grades. Wins in debate and quiz ball contests. High level of proficiency with the piano and the like. My neghbor takes no prisoners, he has it wired. Like you, I wonder if the goal is really worth it all. But as Mohammed Ali said, Its a free country you can do what you want.
I like to read and enjoy learning, but I also like to have some choice in what I read. I don't want it all determined. I like to think about some new areas of science and math (new for me, not real new). I can be really happy with a book and a pencil and pad. Joy of discovery.
Seems to me that climbing the ladder at a place like HP really to some extent ended up being entering a lying contest. I never have cared for those whose most highly developed skill is distorting the achievements of their group and blowing the most snow around. I don't want to have lying mother ers like Snapp as my peers. Pat Byrne, Bill Sullivan etcetera, they arent quite as bad as snapp but they do distort stuff a fair bit.
BBBBB: After a few decades, I guess we get a tad cynical, but it's really based on experience. For managers, there is the appeal of a twenty something blindly listening to a manager's insane idea, and then working like hell 24/7 to make it happen, believing the story that they will save the company. Old dogs like us which nip back at the master's hand when we've been whacked several times as well as fed, well you know when there is an opportunity to put us on the list, oddly there are a lot of us on it.
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