帝国主义：阶级和民族的斗争如何创造我们的世界

政治经济学家拉迪卡·德赛和迈克尔·哈德森解释了帝国主义不仅是阶级斗争的产物，也是国家斗争的产物，以及地缘政治经济框架如何帮助我们理解资本主义世界体系的国际关系。Political economists Radhika Desai and Michael Hudson explain how imperialism is a product not only of the struggle between classes but also nations, and how the framework of geopolitical economy helps us understand the international relations of the capitalist world system.

您可以 You can 在此处找到更多地缘政治经济时间剧集find more episodes of Geopolitical Economy Hour here。.

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RADHIKA DESAI RADHIKA DESAI：大家好，欢迎来到第 16 届: Hello and welcome to the 16th 地缘政治经济时段Geopolitical Economy Hour，这是每两周一次的节目，我们将在其中讨论我们这个时代的政治和地缘政治经济。我是拉迪卡·德赛。, the fortnightly show in which we discuss the political and geopolitical economy of our times. I'm Radhika Desai.

迈克尔·哈德森MICHAEL HUDSON：我是迈克尔·哈德森。: And I'm Michael Hudson.

拉迪卡·德赛RADHIKA DESAI：我们在金砖国家历史性峰会的最后一天（8 月 24 日）录制这个节目，无视西方媒体对金砖国家无关紧要、不团结、撒谎和独裁主义的无数乐观预测。 ，等等。: And we are recording this show on the last day [24 August] of what may well be remembered as a historic BRICS summit, defying no end of gleeful predictions in the Western press about the BRICS' irrelevance, disunity, mendaciousness, authoritarianism, and whatnot.

今天构成金砖国家的五个主要国家，尽管相对贫困，但以购买力平价（PPP）衡量，在世界经济中所占的比例较大。The five major countries that today constitute the BRICS, despite their relative poverty, constitute a larger proportion of the world economy, measured by PPPs, that is to say purchasing power parity.

他们能够走到一起并做出一些令人惊奇的事情。例如，西方媒体一方面一直试图离间中国和俄罗斯，据说这两个国家渴望扩大金砖国家，另一方面则试图在印度、巴西和南非之间挑拨离间，而印度、巴西和南非则被认为是不愿意这样做。And they have been able to come together and do some amazing things. The Western media, for example, has been trying to drive a wedge between China and Russia on the one hand, who are said to be eager to expand the BRICS, and India and Brazil and South Africa on the other, who are said to be reluctant to do so.

然而，尽管所有关于中国将金砖国家新成员纳入议程将导致不团结和争吵的预测，事实是金砖国家会议今天结束，约翰内斯堡金砖国家峰会已经结束。今天结束，六名新成员加入。But despite all the predictions about the disunity and the fracas that would ensue with China having placed the inclusion of new members of the BRICS on the agenda, the fact of the matter is that the BRICS meeting has closed today, the BRICS summit in Johannesburg has closed today with the inclusion of six new members.

这就是沙特阿拉伯、阿拉伯联合酋长国、伊朗、埃塞俄比亚、埃及和阿根廷。鉴于这里有大量的西亚和北非成员国，我们可以开始想知道这将对美国在所谓的中东的影响力产生什么影响。So that's Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Iran, Ethiopia, Egypt, and Argentina. Given the large number of West Asian and North African members here, we can begin to wonder what this is going to do to U.S. influence in what's generally called the Middle East.

金砖国家不仅接纳了这些新成员，而且还同意制定大量新成员加入的规则和程序，因为如你所知，其他数十个国家也表达了对金砖国家的兴趣。金砖国家。The BRICS countries have not only admitted these new members, but they have also agreed to set down the rules and procedures by which a large number of new members will be inducted, because as you know, dozens of other countries have expressed an interest in the BRICS.

因此，金砖国家很可能成为世界大多数国家的制度基础，正如人们越来越多地称呼“全球南方”和“俄罗斯”一样。他们做了更多的事情。So it's quite possible that the BRICS may well become the institutional foundation of the world majority, as the global South and Russia are increasingly being called. They have done more things.

西方媒体还试图将这些国家，即金砖国家，描绘成只不过是一群独裁国家或非常不稳定的民主国家。The Western press has also sought to portray these countries, the BRICS countries, as little more than a bunch of autocracies or very iffy democracies.

但事实上，尽管有这样的宣传，我们在金砖国家峰会上看到的是，他们一直致力于提出一种截然不同的世界秩序愿景，一种基于发展、以人民为中心的发展理念。But in fact, despite such propaganda, what we've seen in the BRICS summit is that they have been focused on presenting a very different vision of the world order, one based on development, on people-centered development.

这表现在与西方世界秩序观念的直接对抗上，西方世界秩序观念当然披着人权和民主的外衣，但几十年来只给世界大部分地区带来了贫困和剥削。 。And this has been expressed in a direct confrontation with the Western conception of the world order, which has, of course, been dressed up in the garb of human rights and democracy, but for decades has brought only poverty and exploitation to much of the world.

迈克尔·赫德森MICHAEL HUDSON：嗯，从很多方面来说，这是一次初步会议，只是为了为即将发生的事情奠定基础。而现阶段，我认为金砖国家能做的就是自己做出安排。: Well, in many ways, this was a preliminary meeting just to set the stage for what's going to come. And at this stage, I think all the BRICS can do is to make arrangements among themselves.

正如我们之前讨论的，最简单的事情就是以本国货币进行交易并安排货币互换，然后再尝试创建一种新型的银行或其他信贷融资方式。And the easiest thing to do, as we've discussed before, is to trade in their own currencies and to arrange currency swaps before trying to create a new kind of bancor other means of credit financing.

但真正的问题是金砖国家与西方之间的关系。当他们必须支付外币债务以及石油、采矿权和公用事业的外国所有权的所有新殖民主义负担时，他们如何能够创建我们一直在讨论的新国际秩序？But the real problem is going to be the relationship between the BRICS and the West. How can they create a new international order that we've been discussing while they have to pay all of the neocolonial burden of their foreign dollar debt and the foreign ownership of their oil and mining rights and public utilities?

他们如何对外国石油和采矿污染征收气候清理费用？现行国际法规定，这些公司有权起诉任何政府，要求其对跨国公司征收新税或制定新法规。How can they enforce climate cleanup costs on foreign oil and mining pollution? The current international law says that the companies have a right to sue any government for a new tax on multinational firms or new regulations.

因此，这意味着政府必须支付所有的清理费用和所有的外部不经济。从本质上讲，他们今天的处境比殖民时期更糟糕。And so it means the government has to pay all of the cleanup costs, all of the external diseconomies. And essentially, they're put into an even worse locked-in position today than they were in the colonial period.

那么，他们如何才能抵御这种美国支持的秩序以及试图创造替代秩序的国家的政权更迭呢？这一切都得等待未来的金砖国家会议。So how can they defend themselves from this kind of US-sponsored order and the regime change for countries that try to create an alternative to it? All that's going to have to wait for the future BRICS meetings.

我们现在甚至不能开始讨论这个问题。我们已经讨论了我们在前几集中的想法。And we really can't even begin to discuss that now. We've discussed what we thought in earlier episodes of this.

拉迪卡·德赛RADHIKA DESAI：当然，迈克尔。我的意思是，你所谈论的各种问题，我的意思是，金砖国家议程确实是一个非常非常大和高的议程。因此，我们目前所能期待的是，金砖国家只是一个开始，但他们确实已经开始了。: Absolutely, Michael. I mean, the kinds of problems you're talking about, I mean, the BRICS agenda is really a very, very big and tall one. So all we can expect at the moment is that the BRICS have only made a beginning, but a beginning they definitely have made.

正如你所说，你谈论的是国际货币体系和金融安排。事实是，西方媒体再次充斥着关于金砖国家采取任何削弱美元地位的行动将是多么困难甚至不可能的故事。Like you say, you're talking about the international monetary system and the financial arrangements. And the fact of the matter is that, again, the Western press was sort of brimming with stories about how difficult, if not impossible, it would be for the BRICS to do anything that would dent the position of the dollar.

但如你所知，去美元化不仅正在进行，而且金砖国家非常意识到有必要推进它。But as you know, de-dollarization is not only ongoing, but the BRICS are very aware of the need to carry it forward.

这次会议结束时，峰会还达成一项协议，成立一个委员会，具体讨论金砖国家可能实际采取哪些步骤，以开始摆脱美元体系的触角，作为一个组织，作为一个国家集团，事实证明这对他们的利益非常不利。And this meeting, the summit has also closed with an agreement to set up a commission to discuss exactly what steps the BRICS countries may realistically take to begin to disentangle itself as an organization, as a grouping of countries from the tentacles of the dollar system, which have proven so adverse to their interests.

此外，金砖国家还提出了乌克兰和平方案，再次强调需要谈判。这与西方及其为了自身的短期利益和企业的短期利益而继续煽动冲突的方式形成了鲜明的对比。In addition, the BRICS countries have also put forward a peace plan for Ukraine, once again, emphasizing the need to negotiate. And this could not form a starker contrast to the West and the manner in which it has continued fueling a conflict for its own completely short-term interests and the short-term interests of their corporations.

因此，从所有这些方面来看，事实是金砖国家峰会提出了一种替代方案，一种不仅涉及制度安排和技术细节的替代方案，而且是一种世界秩序的替代愿景。So in all of these ways, the fact of the matter is that the BRICS summit are presenting an alternative, an alternative that's not just about the institutional arrangements and the technicalities, but it is an alternative vision of the world order.

一方面，存在着帝国主义和经济从属地位，而这正是西方所提供的。另一方面，世界秩序建立在合作、和平、尤其是发展的基础上。On the one side, you have imperialism and economic subordination, which is what the West is offering. And on the other side, you have a world order which is based on cooperation, on peace, and above all, on development.

因此，当我们观看这一切时，迈克尔和我认为我们真正应该做的是，我们应该深入研究我们正在做的事情的基础知识，深入研究地缘政治经济的基础知识，深入研究我们观点的基础知识，事实上，与主流媒体甚至左派许多部分所提供的内容非常不同，然而，这也将让你看清主流方法所创造的烟雾和镜子。So as we were watching all this, Michael and I thought what we should really do is we should take a deep dive into the basics of what we are doing, into the basics of geopolitical economy, into the basics of our perspective, which in fact is very different from what is on offer in the mainstream media and even in many sections of the left, which is going to also, however, be going to also allow you to sort of see through the smoke and mirrors created by the dominant approaches.

因此，正如我们所见，地缘政治经济学一词涵盖了政治经济学，也就是说，对社会、经济和政体的国内结构的理解，以及这些国内结构决定每个国家如何相互联系的方式。在国际关系模式中与其他社会的关系，因为一个国家的内部情况决定了它与外部国家的关系。So the term geopolitical economy, as we see it, encompasses political economy, that is to say an understanding of the domestic structures of a society, economy, and polity altogether, as well as the manner in which these domestic structures determine how every country relates to other societies in a pattern of international relationships because it's what a country is like inside that determines how it relates to countries outside.

这就是为什么区分帝国主义列强（例如美国、英国或法国）的外交政策与其他列强（无论是中国还是某些列强，例如印度或巴西）的外交政策非常重要。它们并不完全是社会主义的，但尽管如此，它们也没有相同的帝国背景。That's why it's important to distinguish, for example, between the foreign policies of imperialist powers, such as the United States or Britain or France, from the foreign policies of other powers, whether it's China or even some powers, say like India or Brazil, which are not exactly socialist, but nevertheless, they do not have the same imperial background.

因此，我们认为国际关系植根于国内关系。因此，地缘政治经济一词不仅涉及国际，也同样涉及国内，不仅涉及国家，而且还涉及阶级。So we see international relationships as being rooted in domestic relationships. And the term geopolitical economy is therefore not just about the international, but equally refers to the domestic, not just about nations, but also about classes.

迈克尔·赫德森MICHAEL HUDSON：拉迪卡和我一直在讨论的所有这些问题的原因是，当今所有经济体都面临着类似的金融问题，特别是银行信贷和住房债务之间的联系、地方融资和公共融资问题，因为各州和各省无法像中央政府那样创造自己的货币和信贷。: Well, the reason for all of this that Radhika and I have been discussing is that all economies today are facing similar financial problems, especially the linkage between bank credit and housing debt, problems of local financing, public financing, because states and provinces can't create their own money and credit in the way that a national government can do.

因此，这些国内问题与国际经济相互作用。这就是我们今天要关注的重点。目前，这意味着与以美国为中心的美元化新自由主义经济互动，而新自由主义经济受国际货币基金组织和美国国务院制定的规则的约束。So these domestic problems interact with the international economy. And that's what we want to focus on today. At present, that means interacting with the US-centered dollarized neoliberal economy, which is subject to rules set by the International Monetary Fund and the US State Department.

我们将重点关注这些国内问题如何与全球经济结构相互作用。And we're going to focus on how these domestic problems interact with the way in which the global economy is structured.

这一分析将解释为什么需要一个新的国际经济秩序来防止全球大多数国家陷入同样的??金融化、债务负担重的经济两极分化，这种两极分化已将美国和欧洲经济推入后工业化停滞。他们现在在里面。And that analysis is going to explain why a new international economic order is needed to prevent the global majority from having to go down the same financialized, debt-burdened economic polarization that has pushed the United States and the European economies into the post-industrial stagnation that they're now in.

拉迪卡·德赛RADHIKA DESAI：当然。从某种意义上说，迈克尔，你所说的让我想起的一件事是我们谈论世界分裂成两个阵营。一方面是旧帝国主义列强的阵营，另一方面是世界多数派的阵营。: Absolutely. In one sense, you know, one of the things, Michael, that what you're saying reminds me of is that we talk about the world splitting into two camps. On the one hand, the camp of the old imperialist powers, and on the other hand, the camp of the world majority.

但这些阵营本质上并非同一件事，只是相互对立。相反，它们代表了本质上不同的经济发展模式。当然，这种差异的关键在于，世界上大多数人越来越开始拒绝新自由主义、金融化资本主义的模式。But these camps are not just essentially the same thing, just pitted against one another. On the contrary, they represent qualitatively different models of economic development. And key in this difference is, of course, that the world majority is increasingly beginning to reject the model of neoliberal, financialized capitalism.

这一直是我们辩论的主要目标之一。And this has been one of the key objects of our debate.

所以我们想做的本质上是，我想我们所说的地缘政治经济实际上只是一种合理的唯物主义和历史方式，试图理解世界是由国家的等级制度构成的，这个等级制度最初是从一开始就创建的资本主义和与之相伴随的帝国主义。So what we want to do is essentially, I suppose what we are saying about geopolitical economy is it's really just a sound materialist and historical way of trying to understand that the world is structured into a hierarchy of nations, a hierarchy originally created with the beginnings of capitalism and the imperialism that went along with it.

那么世界是如何构成等级制度的，而且这个等级制度如何反映每个国家内部的阶级关系。因此，我们在这个节目中要做的是，我们想要明确我们的观点与其他人的观点、主流观点以及某些左翼观点不同的主要方式。So how the world is structured in a hierarchy, but also how this hierarchy reflects the internal class relations of each country. So what we're gonna do in this show is we want to set up exactly the main ways in which our perspective differs from what other people's perspectives, the mainstream as well as certain left-wing ones.

最好的方法是我们想出几十种我们观点不同的原则。所以我们想我们会一一浏览它们。And the best way to do it was we thought of some dozen principle ways in which our perspective differs. So we thought we would just go through them, so one by one.

所以第一个是我们思考事物的方式，我们不认为某些国家是无关紧要的，只有阶级重要或者你有什么，或者阶级不重要，只有国家重要。我们将国家和阶级放在一个单一的视角中。你不这么认为吗，迈克尔？So the first one is the way we think about things, we don't think that some nations are irrelevant, only classes matter or what have you, or that classes don't matter, only nations matter. We put both nation and class into a single perspective. Don't you think so, Michael?

迈克尔·赫德森MICHAEL HUDSON：嗯，人们的思维方式发生了彻底的转变。早在 20 世纪 60 年代，当我与自由主义者、左翼和马克思主义者交谈时，他们反对民族主义。: Well, there's been a whole shift in the way people are thinking. Back in the 1960s, when I was talking to liberals and to the left-wing and Marxists, they opposed nationalism.

他们刚刚从第二次世界大战中走出来，他们认为第二次世界大战的教训是，如果有民族主义，就会有竞争，他们就会陷入战争，就像德国和欧洲国家那样第一次世界大战中的英国就是这样做的，他们认为解决方案将是建立一种国际秩序，让每个人都成为一个幸福的家庭，仿佛摆脱民族主义就能消除竞争。They were just coming out of World War II when they thought the lesson of World War II was if you have nationalism, you're going to have rivalries and that they're going to go to war, like Germany did and like the European countries did, England in World War I, and they thought the solution was going to be an international order where everybody will be one happy family, as if getting rid of nationalism would cure the rivalries.

没有人真正清楚地预料到的是，存在着一种国际主义，但这是一种导致战争的单极国际主义，美国基本上已经向世界其他地区宣战了，拥有800个军事基地，干扰了一个国家的军事行动。一个又一个国家。And what nobody really anticipated so clearly was that there has been an internationalism, but it's been a unipolar internationalism that is leading to war, is the United States has basically declared war on the whole rest of the world with 800 military bases, interfering with one country after another.

自1945年以来，或者至少自1950年以来，它几乎一直在发动战争，也许有几年它没有打仗了。所以事实是，今天的国际主义和全球化是战争经济。And it's been waging war almost the entire time since 1945, or at least since 1950, maybe a few years it hasn't been at war. So the fact is that today's internationalism and globalization is a war economy.

美国的军费开支迫使其他国家将大量经济盈余和政府收入用于军事防御，而不是按照二战后的预期建设基础设施。And the military spending by the United States has forced other countries to divert a lot of their economic surplus and government revenue towards military defense, instead of putting in place the infrastructure that they'd all been expected to do after World War II.

他们还变得非常依赖石油、食品、垄断技术、计算机芯片、药品贸易，这些贸易由美国控制，作为经济武器，用金融和国际投资殖民主义取代欧洲公开的军事殖民主义，所有这一切都得到了巨额军费开支的支持。And they've also become very dependent on trade in oil, in food, monopolized technology, computer chips, pharmaceuticals that are controlled by the United States as an economic weapon to replace the overt military colonialism of Europe with a financial and international investment colonialism, all that's backed by an enormous amount of military spending.

所以通常我们会说世界上发生的事情反映了国家的自身利益。这就是二战后每个人所期望的。他们认为，经济自身利益将决定世界的形态。So normally we would say that what's happened in the world is reflecting national self-interest. And that's what everybody expected after World War II. They thought that, well, economic self-interest is going to determine the shape of the world.

但美国新保守派所想象的是，一项符合其自身利益的政策最终导致了美国经济的去工业化。But what American neocons imagine is a policy that serves their self-interest turns out to have led to de-industrializing the United States economy.

因为美国的自身利益就是降低生活水平、削减工资水平、使经济两极分化，并将尽可能多的钱转移到最富有的10%人群手中。Because the US self-interest is to reduce its living standards, to cut back wage levels, to polarize the economy, and to define America's self-interest as transferring as much money as possible into the wealthiest 10%.

因此，美国的自身利益不是99%劳动者的自身利益，而是金融阶层的自身利益。这决定了邀请中国加入世界贸易组织的国际政策，主要是利用廉价的中国劳动力来对抗美国的生活水平。So instead of the US self-interest being the self-interest of the 99% labor, it's a self-interest of the financial class. And that has determined the international policy that led to inviting China into the World Trade Organization to essentially use inexpensive Chinese labor as a fight against the US living standards.

所有这一切都有一个阶级元素。There is a class element in all of this.

比尔·克林顿以他的反劳工行动和国际利益之间的联系开始了这一切，这种联系掩盖了阶级利益。Bill Clinton started it all with his anti-labor moves and that linkage between international interest that sort of conceals the class interest.

金砖国家面临的问题是，当影响阶级利益时，你们的国家自身利益是什么？And the question for the BRICS is going to be, what is your national self-interest as it affects the class interests?

拉迪卡·德赛RADHIKA DESAI：迈克尔，你回到第二次世界大战后时期是非常正确的，因为从某种意义上说，你所看到的第二次世界大战后时期发生的事情，例如民族主义变得如此强烈的原因忽视的一点是，特别是在西方话语中，美国基本上是为了自己的帝国建设而试图抹黑其他国家的声誉。: Michael, you're quite right to go back to the post-second World War period because in a certain sense, what you see happening in the post-second World War period, the reason why, for example, nationalism gets such short shrift, particularly in the Western discourse, is that that's the moment at which essentially the United States, in the interest of its own empire building, is trying to discredit nations.

它试图说，每个人都应该加入自己的单一世界秩序的世界主义愿景，在这种秩序中，民族国家应该退一步。他们不再干预经济，这使得最强大的民族国家，即美国，可以不受其他国家的任何限制地推动其企业的利益。It's trying to say that everybody should join in its own cosmopolitan vision of a single world order in which nation states sort of step back. They don't intervene in economies anymore, which allows the most powerful nation state, namely the United States, push the interests of its corporations without any restriction from other countries.

当然，美国没有得到它想要的东西，但这与民族主义的话语抹黑有很大关系。当然，最近发生的两次世界大战这一事实有助于美国试图提出的理由。Of course, the United States did not get what it wanted, but the discursive discrediting of nationalism had to do very much with that. And of course, the fact that there had been two world wars in the recent past helped the case that the U.S. was trying to make.

当然，两次世界大战不仅仅是由民族国家引起的。他们也是由民族进行战斗的，这些民族国家也由其他民族国家进行战斗。所以双方都有民族国家。Of course, the two world wars were not just caused, they were not just caused by nation states. They were also fought by nation, those nation states were also fought by other nation states. So there were nation states on both sides.

因此，尽管如此，美国还是试图将民族主义与纳粹主义之类的东西等同起来。So, but nevertheless, somehow the United States tried to equate nationalism with Nazism and that sort of thing.

但实际上，历史上那个时刻还有另一个事实不允许各国消失。这就是被欧洲列强殖民的国家的非殖民化。But in reality, there was another fact of that moment in history that would not allow nations to go away. And that was the decolonization of the countries that had been colonized by the various European powers.

因此，这种非殖民化本质上对民族主义产生了积极的影响，因为这些新独立的国家要做的就是基本上保留倾向社会主义的发展形式，在这种形式中，代表绝大多数人民的国家，其中许多人、为独立而奋斗的广大群众等等。So this decolonization essentially put a positive spin on nationalism because what these newly independent countries were going to do was they were going to essentially have left leaning, socialistic forms of development in which the state, representing the vast majority of the people, many of whom, the vast masses that had fought for independence and so on.

代表这些人民利益的国家将努力塑造一种服务于整个社会利益的发展形式。The state representing the interests of these people would try to fashion a form of development that would serve the interests of the whole community.

因此，不仅是中国或越南成为了共产主义国家，而且印度、墨西哥或巴西等国家也都在追求许多非洲国家的形式。So it's not just that, say, for example, that China or Vietnam became communist, but also countries like India or Mexico or Brazil or what have you were all pursuing forms of many African countries.

他们有意识地追求本应符合绝大多数人民利益的发展形式。因此，从这个意义上说，存在着某种类型的世界主义，它为帝国主义以新形式的延续服务，即夸梅·恩克鲁玛所说的新殖民主义，它与民族和民族主义的积极解释并存。They were consciously pursuing forms of development that was supposed to be in the interest of the vast majority of the people. So in that sense, there was both a certain type of cosmopolitanism, which was in the service of the continuation of imperialism in a new form, what Kwame Nkrumah called neocolonialism, was standing side by side with the positive interpretation of nations and nationalism.

迈克尔·赫德森MICHAEL HUDSON：嗯，美国赞助的国际主义实际上是金融资本主义。: Well, the U.S. sponsored kind of internationalism really is finance capitalism.

民族主义往往是工业化的，因为你想建立自己的独立性。你想在食物上自给自足。您希望在基本生活必需品上能够自给自足。And nationalism tends to be industrial, because you want to build up your independence. You want to be self-sufficient in food. You want to be self-sufficient in basic essentials.

你需要政府进行控制，基本上是提供公共基础设施、自然垄断、通信、医疗保健和教育。And you need governments to take control, basically to provide the public infrastructure, the natural monopolies, communications and health care and education.

你想通过技术来提高生产力，这通常需要保护性关税、资本管制以及对新资本投资、研究和开发的补贴。这涉及政府通过提供基本需求来降低生产成本和生活成本。You want to build up your productivity by technology, and often this requires protective tariffs and capital controls and subsidies to new capital investment, research and development. And that involves the government lowering the cost of production and the cost of living by providing basic needs.

金融并不是真正的一门课程。不知何故，金融并不是马克思意义上的一个阶级，因为它处于生产和消费经济的外部。And finance is not really a class. Somehow finance is not a class in Marx's sense, because it's external to the economy of production and consumption.

所有阶层，每个人都是储户和债务人。所有的劳动力都被金融化了，就像行业被金融化了一样。而且基础设施已经金融化，而不是像19世纪人们所期望的那样社会化。And all classes, everybody's a saver and a debtor. All labor is financialized, just as the industry is financialized. And the infrastructure has been financialized instead of socialized, as people had expected in the 19th century.

因此，从这个意义上说，金融是在经济之外运作的，包括国际经济。马克思在第三卷中解释说，金融及其债务创造的动态是数学的，并且外部于生产和消费的实体经济动态。So in that sense, finance works from outside of the economy, including the international economy. And Marx explained in Volume 3, the dynamics of finance and its debt creation are mathematical and external to the dynamics of the real economy of production and consumption.

因此，今天的独特之处在于，金融实际上可以取代工业资本，成为远离政府的主要资源配置者、主要中央计划者，这在第二次世界大战中是没有预料到的。当然，所有这一切的问题在于，金融资本主义往往会最小化政府的作用。So what's unique today, and this was not anticipated in World War II, is that finance can actually replace industrial capital as the main resource allocator, the main central planner, away from government. And the problem with all this, of course, is that finance capitalism tends to minimize the role of government.

从而取代它，将经济计划转移到华尔街等金融中心自己手中，其控制手段是通过国际货币基金组织、世界银行、SWIFT系统、国际清算银行等国际金融组织，甚至国际刑事法院也将任何退出这一金融体系的企图定为犯罪。So as to replace it and to shift economic planning into its own hand, Wall Street and other financial centers, and its means of control are via international financial organizations like the IMF, the World Bank, the SWIFT system, the Bank for International Settlements, and even the International Criminal Court that criminalizes any attempt to withdraw from this financial system.

拉迪卡·德赛RADHIKA DESAI：是的，所以，你知道，在试图谈论国家和阶级、国内和国际时，我们经常遇到的一件事就是马克思以某种方式认为的这一想法，你知道，资本主义本质上是国际主义的，并且是世界性的、世界性的，我们可以说，全球性的。: Right, and so one of the things that, you know, in trying to talk about nations as well as classes, domestic as well as international, that we often run up against is this idea that somehow Marx thought that, you know, capitalism was inherently internationalist and sort of worldwide, cosmopolitan, shall we say, global, shall we say.

当然，社会主义也应该如此。所以，你知道，国家完全是一种倒退的返祖现象，我们应该尽可能地压制它。And of course, socialism should be that way. So nations are to be completely, you know, they're sort of a regressive atavistic thing which we should try to suppress as much as possible.

但事实并非如此。你知道，迈克尔，你所说的是国家如何有必要在发展中发挥重要作用，马克思对此非常理解。But this, in fact, is not true. You know, what, Michael, you were saying about how it is necessary for the state to play a major role in development, Marx understood that very well.

所以有一句话非常重要，你知道，马克思应该在《谷物法》的辩论中支持自由贸易，但这是一种非常有条件的自由贸易支持，因为马克思认为，你要知道，如果自由贸易加速了资本主义的发展，那么也许我们应该拥有自由贸易。So there is this very important saying, you know, Marx is supposed to have come down in favor of free trade in the debates on Corn Laws, but it was a very conditional type of kind of endorsement of free trade because Marx thought that, you know, if free trade hastens the development of capitalism, then maybe we should have free trade.

但在他支持自由贸易的同一套著作中，他还指出了以下几点。这就是引用的地方，“如果自由贸易者不能理解一个国家如何以牺牲另一个国家为代价而变得富裕，我们就不必感到奇怪。这些先生们也拒绝理解一个阶级如何以牺牲另一个阶级为代价来使自己致富。 ”But in the same set of writings in which he endorsed free trade, he also pointed out the following. And this is where it's a quote, "If free traders cannot understand how one nation can grow rich at the expense of another, we need not wonder. These same gentlemen also refuse to understand how one class can enrich itself at the expense of another."

所以这是非常明确地将阶级和民族放在同一框架内的。一个阶级剥削其他阶级，一个国家剥削其他阶级。由此可见，马克思对于帝国主义的结构是非常了解的。So this is a very clear placing of class and nation together in the same frame. One classes exploit other classes and nations exploit other classes. So it reveals that Marx is very aware of the structures of imperialism.

同样，正如我们多次谈到的，马克思也非常清楚，为了发展，国家必须发挥主要作用。它们必须实施关税，以保护其新兴产业免受它们尚未能够抵御的竞争的影响。And equally, as we've talked about many times, Marx was also very aware that in order to develop, states must play a major role. They must implement tariffs to protect their infant industries from competition against which they are not yet able to stand up.

他们必须为生产性企业的扩张等创造信贷条件和金融条件。因此，对于资本主义本身的发展来说，所需的条件已经非常需要国家干预，以至于任何存在自由市场资本主义等的观念都被抛之脑后了。They must create the credit conditions and the financial conditions for the expansion of productive enterprises and so on. So already for the development of capitalism itself, the conditions that are required so require state intervention that any notion that there is such a thing as free market capitalism, etc., goes out the window.

当然，地缘政治经济学还指出的另一件事是，即使在资本主义国家，国家也始终必须发挥核心作用，因为资本主义本质上是矛盾的，你知道，资本主义不可能持续任何时间。国家没有发挥主要稳定作用的时期。And of course, the other thing that geopolitical economy also points out is the reason why even in capitalist countries, states always must play a central role is because capitalism is inherently contradictory and you cannot have a capitalism, you know, continue for any length of time without the state playing a major stabilizing role.

所以这就是为什么随着资本主义的发展，你不仅得到了阶级的发展，你还得到了世界划分为现代民族国家体系的原因。So that is why with the development of capitalism, you don't just get the development of classes, you also get the division of the world into the modern nation state system.

因此，阶级剥削发生了，但民族剥削也发生了，因为从本质上讲，早期的发展者，早期的资本主义发展者也不可避免地成为帝国主义，因为资本主义是矛盾的。So class exploitation occurs, but so does national exploitation, because essentially the early developers, the early capitalist developers inevitably also become imperialist because the capitalisms are contradictory.

他们试图使其他领土处于从属地位，这种从属地位有助于他们处理资本主义的矛盾，无论是为过剩的商品和资本寻找出路，还是获得资本主义永远需要的廉价劳动力和廉价原材料。扩大。They try to subordinate other territories, which then, that subordination helps them to deal with the contradictions of their capitalism, whether it is to find outlets for excess commodities and capital or to acquire cheap labor and cheap raw materials, which capitalism needs evermore as it expands.

最后，这也表明，由于资本主义促进了帝国主义，因此以民族为中心的发展成为许多国家任何形式发展的基本前提，这就是为什么在资本主义历史的早期，我们正在关注20世纪初一个世纪以来，从工业资本主义开始大约一个世纪或一个半世纪以来，社会主义对资本主义的第一次挑战已经以俄罗斯革命的形式出现。And so finally, what this also shows is that because capitalism prompts imperialism, nationally focused development becomes the essential prerequisite of any form of development for many countries, which is why quite early in the history of capitalism, we're looking at the early 20th century, so really about a century or a century and a half from the beginnings of industrial capitalism, you already have the appearance of the first socialist challenge to capitalism in the form of the Russian Revolution.

因此，从这个意义上说，这些国家本质上是在说我们不能屈服于帝国主义、资本主义、帝国主义国家。我们没有任何发展资本主义的前景。所以我们已经在社会主义道路上发展了。So in that sense, these are countries that are essentially saying we cannot have subordination to to imperialist, capitalist, imperialist countries. We do not have any prospect of developing capitalism. So we are going to develop on a socialist path already.

迈克尔·赫德森MICHAEL HUDSON：嗯，如果你认识到帝国主义的现实，这意味着一个完全不同的经济理论体系。: Well, if you recognize the reality of imperialism, this implies an entire different body of economic theory.

1969 年，我不得不开始在新学院教授经济理论，而且我确实没有从研究生课程中一直学习它，因为大多数大学发现它太愚蠢了，无法教授。And I had to begin teaching economic theory in 1969 at the New School, and I really hadn't studied it all the way through my graduate courses because most universities found it just too silly to teach.

自由贸易理论假设每个人都从贸易中获益，所有贸易都是自愿的，都是自由市场的选择，没有关税将使经济更加平等和更具竞争力。The free trade theory assumes that everybody gains from trade and that all trade is voluntary and it's all a choice free market and that an absence of tariffs is going to make economies more equal and more competitive.

而这与世界经济的实际运作方式恰恰相反，因为自由贸易的真正效果是，主导国家都通过保护自己的产业而成为主导国家。And that's just the opposite of how the world economy actually works, because the real effect of free trade is that the dominant countries all became dominant by protecting their industry.

首先，19世纪的英国，然后是美国和德国，都是高度保护主义的。一旦他们有了政府补贴的工业，他们就会告诉其他国家，不要做我们所做的事情。没有政府保护。就去最便宜的地方买吧。我们将为你们提供更加便宜的食品、工业和一切你们需要的东西，因为我们已经有了资金，而你们却没有。First, Britain and then the United States and Germany in the 19th century were highly protectionist. And once they had government subsidized industry, they then told other countries, don't do what we did. Don't have government protection. Just buy in the cheapest place. We will give you food and industry and everything that you need much cheaper because we already have the capital in place and you don't.

结果是经济出现两极分化。我在我的《贸易发展与外债》一书中描述了所有这些，这基本上不仅是一部自由贸易理论的历史，也是一部关于它如何被英国、德国和美国经济学家一次又一次争议的历史。And the result is that there was a polarization of the economy. I describe all of this in my book, Trade Development and Foreign Debt, which is a history of basically not only free trade theory, but how it was controverted again and again by British, German and American economists.

所有这些现在都已从古典课程中删除。All of that is now expurgated from the classical curriculum.

自由贸易的真正结果是，当各国被迫出现贸易逆差时，其货币将会贬值，然后它们必须求助于国际货币基金组织，国际货币基金组织介入并实施紧缩政策，特别是反劳工政策。And the real result of free trade is when countries are forced into a trade deficit, their currency is going to decline and then they have to go to the International Monetary Fund that comes in and it imposes austerity and specifically anti-labor policies.

国际货币基金组织的作用是为了实现比尔·克林顿邀请中国加入世界贸易组织时的目标。The IMF's role is to aim at what Bill Clinton aimed at when he invited China into the World Trade Organization.

你想要保留一批劳动力，即马克思所说的失业后备军，不是在美国，而是在非工业化国家，这些国家基本上一直在贬值全世界的劳动力价格。You want to keep a pool of labor, what Marx called the reserve army of the unemployed, not in the United States, but in the non-industrialized countries that basically are kept devaluing the price of labor throughout the world.

这将以美国为中心的帝国主义现象变成了全球阶级战争。And that turns the phenomenon of U.S. centered imperialism into a global class war.

拉迪卡·德赛RADHIKA DESAI：好的，迈克尔，那么我们应该继续讨论我们想要提出的下一点，那就是我们应该，地缘政治经济允许我们将阶级和国家剥削放在一起理解，就像我们将阶级和国家放在一起一样在同一框架内，我们也将阶级剥削和民族剥削放在同一框架内。: Right, Michael, so shall we go on to the next point we want to make, which is that we should, that geopolitical economy permits us to understand class and national exploitation together, just as we put class and nation together in the same frame, we also put class and national exploitation in the same frame.

事实确实如此。在一个国家内存在阶级剥削，从而在一个国家内产生某种阶级权力。And this is exactly so. You have class exploitation within a country that produces a certain kind of class power within a country.

那么在国际层面上，地缘政治经济学所解释的就是一些强国企图征服其他国家的企图创造了帝国主义的结构。So at the international plane, what geopolitical economy explains is that the attempt by some powerful countries to subjugate other countries creates the structures of imperialism.

所以你必须把两者放在一起理解，两种剥削形式，也就是说，阶级剥削和其他民族的剥削，都会产生矛盾，因为资本本质上，矛盾意味着资本通常想鱼和熊掌兼得，拥有某物及其对立面。So you have to understand the two together and both forms of exploitation, that is to say, class exploitation and the exploitation of other nations, produce contradictions because capital essentially, contradictions mean that capital would like usually to have its cake and eat it too, to have something and its opposite.

但它不可能总是这样。因此，在一个国家内，阶级剥削会引起工人阶级的反抗。它产生消费不足和生产过剩的危机。它产生了利润率下降和所有这些问题的危机。And it can't always have that. So within a country, class exploitation produces a resistance from the working class. It produces crisis of underconsumption and overproduction. It produces crisis of falling rates of profit and all these things.

在国际上也是如此，国际剥削也会产生对其的抵抗，这就是为什么会有像金砖国家这样的组织；或者像我们在20世纪初那样为民族独立而斗争；不结盟运动；还有今天的金砖国家。And internationally as well, international exploitation also produces resistance to it, which is why you have, for example, the formations like the BRICS; or struggles for national independence, as we had in the early part of the 20th century; the Non-Aligned Movement; and today the BRICS.

所有这些机构并不完美——它们远远不足以满足需要——但它们是朝着抵制帝国主义和帝国剥削方向迈出的一步，就像工会和政党是朝着抵制阶级剥削迈出的一步一样。And all these institutions, they're not perfect - they are far from adequate to what is needed - but they are steps in the direction of resisting imperialism and imperial exploitation, just as trade unions and political parties are steps towards resisting class exploitation.

迈克尔·赫德森MICHAEL HUDSON：因此，我们正在进行的关于金砖国家和美国制裁以及美国与北约对俄罗斯和中国的战争的讨论都是关于各国可以采取哪些政策来将其经济和政府从美国的攻击中解放出来。: So our ongoing discussion of the BRICS and the U.S. sanctions and the U.S.-NATO war against Russia and China is all about what policies countries can take to liberate their economies and their governments from the U.S. attack.

美国称任何政府保护干涉，就好像美国不干涉一样。The U.S. called any government protection interference, as if the United States does not interfere.

任何防御都被称为对市场的干扰和扭曲，就好像市场是由美国华尔街和国务院的中央计划者设定的，目的是创造一个美国将从其他国家吸走所有盈余的世界。世界进入自己的经济，仿佛这是很自然的。Any defense is called interference and a distortion of the market, as if the market is set by U.S. central planners on Wall Street and in the State Department to create a world in which the United States will suck all of the surplus from the rest of the world into its own economy, as if this is natural.

如果你认识到美国单极战略的本质是金融，那就不一定是军事。显然，他们要抢夺叙利亚的石油，非法抢夺伊拉克的石油。但通过金融，他们可以在没有军事开销的情况下进行大量运作。And if you recognize that the essence of this unipolar U.S. strategy is finance, that that's not necessarily military. Obviously, they're going to grab the oil of Syria, grab illegally the oil of Iraq. But it's by finance that they can operate much without the military overhead.

好吧，这就是为什么我们专注于去美元化以及这在实践中意味着什么，从最明显的政策开始，简单地避免使用美元并以本国货币定价贸易，进行掉期。Well, then this is why we focused on de-dollarization and what that means in practice, starting with the most obvious policy, simply avoiding the use of the dollar and pricing trade in their own currencies, making swaps.

问题是，他们将如何进入下一阶段？这确实是涉及国内经济和国际经济重组的方式。The question is, how are they going to go on to the next stage? That's really going to be how it involves restructuring their domestic economy as well as the international economy.

拉迪卡·德赛RADHIKA DESAI：是的。而且，你知道，也认真对待帝国主义，我的意思是，我们强调这一点的原因是，在如此多的主导话语中，帝国主义被完全抹去了。: Yeah. And, you know, taking imperialism seriously also, I mean, the reason why we emphasize this is that in so much of the dominant discourse, you have, imperialism is completely erased.

举例来说，我正在听主流媒体上所有关于金砖国家的评论。Like, for example, I was listening to all the commentary on the BRICS in the mainstream press.

当我听着的时候，我想，好吧，所以这些人正在比较金砖国家和七国集团，金砖国家和二十国集团，就好像没有帝国主义的历史一样，就好像七国集团实际上不是前帝国主义的集合一样。国家和仍然试图控制世界的潜在帝国主义国家。And as I was listening, I thought, OK, so these people are comparing BRICS and the G7 and BRICS and the G20 as though there is no history of imperialism, as though the G7 is not, in fact, a collection of the former imperialist countries and still would-be imperialist countries that are trying to to control the world.

因此，认识到帝国主义就需要抛弃所有这些经过净化的表达方式。例如，人们不再谈论美帝国主义，而是使用美国霸权等术语。So in so recognizing imperialism requires jettisoning all those sanitized expressions. For example, instead of talking about U.S. imperialism, people use terms like U.S. hegemony.

正如我在地缘政治经济学中所说的那样，美国从未实现过霸权之类的东西。但我们所做的是不断尝试实现这一目标，这些尝试具有很大的破坏性，导致了世界各地无休无止的战争等等。The U.S. has never achieved anything like hegemony, as I've argued in geopolitical economy. But what we do have are ceaseless attempts to try to achieve that, which have been very destructive, which have caused ceaseless wars around the world and so on.

你有全球化这样的术语。我觉得令人震惊的是，全球化这个词变得如此流行，不仅在主流中，而且在许多自称批判学者甚至马克思主义学者中。这是为什么？You have terms like globalization. I find it so appalling that the term globalization became so popular, not just in the mainstream, but also among many who call themselves critical and even Marxist scholars. Why is that?

因为他们使用全球化这样的术语，或者更确切地说，通过使用全球化这样的术语，我们完全忘记了这是试图迫使世界其他国家向西方的帝国主义和企业力量开放。Because they use terms like globalization or rather by using terms like globalization, what we are completely forgetting is that this is an attempt to force the rest of the world to open up to the imperialism and corporate power of the West.

所有的自由贸易和自由市场并不一定适合西方。它的目的是开放世界其他经济体、贫穷国家，使它们成为市场和投资渠道，但同样重要的是，成为廉价劳动力和原材料的来源。All the free trade and free markets is not necessarily for the West. It's there to open up the rest of the world's economies, the poor countries, so that they are available as markets and investment outlets, but equally importantly, as sources of cheap labor and raw materials.

例如，使用全球化这个词也意味着你必须说，从20世纪末开始，你经历了第二波全球化，而在19世纪末和20世纪初，出现了前一波全球化。全球化。And for example, also the use of the term globalization also means that you have to say that from the late 20th century onwards, you got a second wave of globalization, whereas in the late 19th and early 20th century, there had been a previous wave of globalization.

你在说什么？那不是全球化浪潮。What are you talking about? That was not a wave of globalization.

那是当时正在酝酿的帝国主义浪潮和竞争性帝国主义浪潮，在第一次世界大战中达到顶峰，最终在第二次世界大战中达到顶峰，因为第二次世界大战最终发生了，因为在第一次世界大战结束后，凡尔赛，所谓凡尔赛解决方案，什么也没有解决。That was a wave of imperialism and the competitive imperialism that was in train at that time, that was occurring at that time, culminated in the First World War and eventually also the Second World War, because the Second World War occurred ultimately, because at the end of the First World War, the Versailles, so-called Versailles settlement, settled nothing.

它只是为一场新战争的出现奠定了基础。因此，认真对待帝国主义就需要认识到这一点。It simply laid the groundwork for a new war to emerge. So taking imperialism seriously involves recognizing that.

它还涉及认识到今天的人权和民主等话语只是乔装打扮，文明使命和白人负担等旧话语的新装扮。It also involves recognizing that today's discourse of human rights and democracy and so on is just the dressed up, the old discourse of the civilizing mission and the white man's burden and so on in a new dress.

因此，这需要认识到并看清这一点，不幸的是太多人没有做到这一点，这就是为什么我们觉得我们需要继续这么说。So it involves recognizing and seeing right through that, which unfortunately too many people don't do and which is why we feel we need to keep saying this.

此外，还有基于规则的国际秩序的理念。事实是，这也很有趣，因为如果你认真对待帝国主义，你就会认识到，联合国本身就是联合国的形成，宪章等等本身就是帝国主义斗争的结果。世界广大人民和民族反对帝国主义，承认主权平等等，尽管他们做出了妥协。Also, the idea of the rules based international order. The fact of the matter is, and this is also quite interesting, because if you take imperialism seriously, you would recognize that the United Nations itself is the formation of the United Nations and the Charter and so on were themselves the result of the struggle of the vast masses of the people and nations of the world against imperialism, the recognition of sovereign equality, etc., even though they were compromised.

但事实是，它们必须在原则上得到承认，然后才做出妥协，这是这些组织和机构（如北约）的成就，正是因为帝国主义国家不想在像北大西洋公约组织这样的机构中与世界上未经洗礼的群众打交道。联合国。But the fact that they had to be recognized in principle and only then compromised was an achievement of these groups and institutions like NATO were created precisely because the imperialist countries did not want to have to deal with the unwashed masses of the world in institutions like the United Nations.

最后一点，你知道，早在资本主义的早期，进入20世纪，西方世界、帝国主义世界就设定了文明标准。And one final point, you know, back in the day, in the early days of capitalism and well into the 20th century, the Western world, the imperialist world set a standard of civilization.

他们说，如果一个国家符合文明标准，这意味着如果他们是另一个帝国主义国家，那么他们将受到另一个主权国家应有的尊重，但他们会受到限制在战争中以及在和平和商业等情况下都要处理。They said that if a country meets the standard of civilization, which means if they are another imperialist country, then they will be dealt with, you know, with all the respect due to another sovereign country, you know, with limits on how they would be dealt with in war as well as in peace and commerce and so on.

当然，这并不包括世界上绝大多数被视为不文明、无所不能的国家。可以使用最残酷的战争行为、最危及生命的制裁等等。But of course, this did not include the vast majority of the countries of the world that were regarded as uncivilized against whom anything could be done. The most brutal acts of warfare, the most life-threatening sanctions and so on could be used.

并且这种想法还在继续。它不使用这个名字，但以人权和民主的名义，当对人们实施制裁时，这只是强加的一种新的文明标准。因此，认真对待帝国主义就需要承认所有这些事情。And this kind of thinking continues. It doesn't take that name, but in the name of human rights and democracy, when sanctions are imposed on people, this is just a new standard of civilization being imposed. So taking imperialism seriously involves recognizing all these things.

迈克尔·赫德森MICHAEL HUDSON：嗯，我认为，第一次世界大战后，马克思和列宁都没有预料到，最有问题的国际骚乱不是私营部门债务，而是政府间债务。: Well, I think that what neither Marx nor even Lenin anticipated after World War I was that the most problematic international disturbance was going to be not private sector debt but intergovernmental debt.

这就是你刚才提到的《凡尔赛条约》的原因，它确实意味着欧洲在历次战争、拿破仑战争和早期战争之后从未经历过的激进事物。And that's what led to the, you just mentioned, the Treaty of Versailles, which really meant something radical that Europe had never experienced after any of its wars, the Napoleonic Wars and the early wars.

所有的盟友都会原谅所有的相互支持和共同作战的成本。他们预计美国不会有任何盟友间的债务。All of the allies would forgive all of the mutual support and the cost of fighting the war together. And they expected that the United States would, there were not going to be any inter-ally debts.

但美国说，好吧，在我们参加第一次世界大战之前，我们让你们战斗到底，你知道，这样我们就可以进来，派遣一些军队，然后声称我们拯救了一切，你们欠我们很多钱。But the United States said, well, before we entered World War I, we let you fight it out, you know, so we could come in, send a few troops and then claim that we saved it all and you owe us a lot of money.

你们欠我们太多的钱，你们欧洲国家在接下来的20年里将不得不陷入萧条。但债务是必须还的。You owe us so much money that you're going to, you European countries are going to have to go into depression for the next 20 years. But a debt has to be paid.

欧洲人说，我们整个西方文明都是建立在所有债务都必须偿还的原则之上的。如果你说我们欠你钱，我们愿意陷入20年的萧条。And the Europeans said, well, our whole Western civilization is based on the principle that all debts have to be paid. If you say we owe you the money, we're willing to go into 20 years of depression.

一线希望是，这将真正伤害劳动力，我们可以压制他们，我们可以报复，阶级战争将在欧洲赢得胜利，我们可以让德国付出代价。The silver lining is this is going to really hurt the labor force and we can hold them down and we can get even, the class war will be won in Europe and we can make Germany pay.

德国是欧洲大陆工业化最具潜力的国家之一。德国是拥有最工业化银行体系的国家。而欧洲，协约国也同样乐意压垮德国，以便为协约国拿到钱来偿还美国的外债。And Germany was the number of the most potentially industrialized continental European country. Germany was the country that had the most industrialized banking system. And Europe, the Allies were just as happy to crush Germany in order to get the money for the Allies to pay the United States foreign debt.

这就是我的整个超级帝国主义的意义所在。我不需要在这里再重复一遍。但政府的所有这些作用，不是引导社会主义发展，而是作为金融的领导，并通过政府作为帝国主义的模式，甚至比私营部门更重要，是完全出乎意料的。That's what my whole Super Imperialism was about that. And I don't need to go over it here again. But all of this role of government, not as leading to socialist development, but as the leading of finance and through government as the mode of imperialism, even more than the private sector, was completely unanticipated.

甚至马克思在 19 世纪中叶在宪章派面前发表演讲时也表示，他支持与印度的自由贸易，因为他说，工业资本主义的结构和动力是如此强大，以至于它是一种新的贸易方式。生产方式，将使印度、亚洲、非洲、南美等落后国家实现现代化。Even Marx, when he gave a speech before the Chartists in the mid-19th century, said, strangely as it might seem, he endorsed free trade with India because he said the structure, the dynamics of industrial capitalism are so powerful that it's a new mode of production and it's going to modernize the backward countries like India, Asia, Africa, South America.

他认为，以某种方式，英国贸易和其他资本主义国家与世界其他国家的贸易将涉及复制他们的体系，并使它们也成为工业资本主义国家，从而导致一种平等，最终最终走向社会主义。He thought that somehow British trade and other capitalist countries trading with the rest of the world was going to involve replicating their system and making them industrial capitalist countries too, leading to a kind of equality that would all end up moving towards socialism ultimately.

但事实并非如此。相反，贸易通过支持附庸寡头、支持军事独裁、使它们依赖贸易而不是独立，使各国陷入落后，最重要的是，阻止它们的政府发挥政府在英国工业资本主义腾飞中所发挥的作用。德国、美国。But that isn't what happened. Instead, the trade has imposed backwardness on countries by supporting client oligarchies, supporting military dictatorships, and making them trade dependent, not independent, and most of all, preventing their governments from playing the role that governments played in the industrial capitalist takeoff in England, Germany, and the United States.

这为私营工业部门提供了基础设施和自然垄断。那么，金融资本主义基本上已经接受了这些基础设施投资，并将它们全部变成了金融活动。This is providing basic infrastructure and natural monopolies for the private industrial sector. Well, finance capitalism has basically taken these infrastructure investments and made them all financial exercises.

没有人预料到各国都会采取行动，反对工业资本主义的金融和经济自身利益，这与第一次世界大战、特别是第二次世界大战、特别是美国的朝鲜战争和越南战争实际出现的情况一样扭曲。导致美元本位制的国家。Nobody expected that countries would all move against what was the financial, the economic self-interest of industrial capitalism to be something as twisted as what's actually emerged from World War I and especially World War II, and especially the Korean and Vietnam wars of the United States that led to the dollar standard.

拉迪卡·德赛RADHIKA DESAI：嗯，你知道，迈克尔，我认为你对马克思及其思想提出了两点，我发现我不能完全同意。事实上，我不能完全同意。: Well, you know, Michael, I think you made two points about Marx and what he thought, which I find I couldn't quite agree completely. In fact, I couldn't quite agree.

因为，首先，你谈到了你如何看待马克思认为资本主义和帝国主义将发展印度。事实并非如此。Because, first of all, you talked about how you thought that Marx thought that capitalism and imperialism were going to develop India. That is not so.

事实上，如果你读过《英国统治印度的未来结果》这本小册子，马克思最后会这么说，他不仅通过说英国人这样做不是出于任何善意或任何其他原因来限定这一点，但你我都知道，我认为你不会不同意这一点。In fact, if you read the pamphlet, "The Future Results of British Rule in India", Marx ends by saying that, and not only he qualifies this by saying that the British are not doing this out of any kindness of their heart or anything, but that you and I know, I don't think you would disagree with that.

但他特别指出，印度真正享受发展成果的唯一途径是英国发生社会主义革命，或者印度获得独立。But he specifically points out that the only way in which India will really enjoy the fruits of development is if there is a socialist revolution in England or equally if India gains independence.

因此，在我看来，毫无疑问，虽然马克思认为印度会出现一些无意的发展形式，但实际上，即使在那时，你知道，在 1840 年代初期、后期和 1850 年代初，马克思就非常清楚，民族独立是发展的先决条件，其原因正如您所认识到的。So there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that while Marx thought that there would be some inadvertent forms of development in India, he actually, even back then, you know, in the early, late 1840s and early 1850s, Marx was very clear that national independence was a prerequisite to development for the reasons exactly that you have recognized.

我想说的是，马克思也认识到这一点。当然，我在各种著作中所表明的是，马克思实际上非常清楚国家在经济发展中的作用的中心地位。All I want to say is Marx recognized it too. And of course, what I've shown in various of my writings is that Marx actually understood very well the centrality of the role of the state in economic development.

然后第二点，我认为你当然正确地指出，马克思并没有预见到金融的政府化。我的意思是，在某种程度上，我同意你的观点，但是，你知道，这有点像说亚里士多德没有想象到有飞机，你知道。And then the second point, I think you, of course, rightly point out that Marx did not anticipate the governmentalization of finance. I mean, at one level, I agree with you, but then, you know, it's a bit like saying that Aristotle did not imagine that there were airplanes, you know.

从某种意义上说，确实值得反思一下，因为我认为你提出了一些非常好的观点。In a certain sense, it's really worth reflecting on that a little bit, because I think you raise some very good points.

所以基本上，如果你看看马克思，马克思的概念是什么，你知道，资本主义将如何发展，为什么社会主义是必要的，它将如何实现？So basically if you look at what Marx, Marx's conception was, you know, what would how would capitalism develop and why was socialism necessary and how would it come about?

本质上，马克思所说的，如果你清楚地审视这一点，我在我的最新著作《资本主义、冠状病毒和战争》中非常清楚地阐述了这一点，在相当长的讨论中，马克思基本上所说的是，资本主义需要竞争，竞争自然就形成了垄断。Essentially, what Marx is saying, if you examine this clearly and I bring this out very clearly in my latest book, Capitalism, Coronavirus and War, in a fairly long discussion about this, what Marx is basically saying is that capitalism requires competition, competition naturally results in monopoly.

一旦资本主义经济进入垄断阶段，大多数经济部门由一个或少数大公司主导，那时社会就已经准备好了。And once a capitalist economy reaches the monopoly phase in which most sectors of the economy are dominated by one or a small number of big corporations, at that point, society will have become ready.

资本主义将为社会主义做好准备。会的，因为它非常简单。他的意思是，只要资本主义在历史上是进步的，就资本主义而言，通过将人类拖入许多泥泞和血腥，并通过制造许多苦难和无政府状态，尽管如此，它还是发展了生产力。Capitalism will become ready for socialism. It will because it's very simple. What he's saying is that insofar as capitalism is historically progressive, insofar as capitalism, by dragging humanity through much mud and gore and by creating a lot of misery and anarchy, nevertheless develops the forces of production.

这是因为竞争的优点。但一旦竞争不再存在，就没有理由继续维持资本主义。It is because of the virtues of competition. But once competition is no longer there, there is no reason to keep capitalism.

因此，资本主义在20世纪初就已经达到了垄断阶段。从那时起，本质上，人类一直在承受维持资本主义在少数国家生存的代价，你看。So capitalism had already reached its monopoly phase in the early part of the 20th century. And since then, essentially, humanity has been suffering the cost of keeping capitalism alive in a small number of countries, you see.

迈克尔·赫德森MICHAEL HUDSON：嗯，你说得对，马克思说必须有一场革命。但他表示，工业资本主义的本质就是一场革命。: Well, you're absolutely right about what Marx said, that there had to be a revolution. But he said a revolution is what industrial capitalism is all about.

他说工业资本主义是革命性的，因为在英国和欧洲，它已经摆脱了封建主义。工业资本主义的战略是将经济从地主垄断、地主阶级和掠夺性金融中解放出来。He said industrial capitalism is revolutionary because in England and Europe, it's gotten rid of feudalism. It's the strategy of industrial capitalism is to free economies from the landlord monopoly, from the landlord class and from predatory finance.

因此，当他说他期望资本主义传播到世界其他地方时，他指的是反对落后的资本主义革命，反对封建垄断的革命，以及他认为确实会导致社会主义的革命。So when he said he expected capitalism to spread to the rest of the world, he meant the capitalist revolution against backwardness, the revolution against feudal monopoly and the revolution that he thought would indeed lead to socialism.

所以你是对的。马克思对经济学采取了全面、广泛的社会观，并不仅仅将经济学局限于价格和收入。马克思认为社会将向社会主义转型。So you're right. Marx took an overall broad social view of economics and didn't just limit economics to prices and incomes. It was a transformation of society that Marx thought was going to appear towards socialism.

这就是第一次世界大战和上个世纪所发生的一切所导致的。And that's what has been [derailed] by World War One and everything the last century has seen.

RADHIKA DESAI RADHIKA DESAI：我们必须在讨论租金时保留这一点，因为我认为您正在谈论的革命已经是里卡多的观点。当然，马克思的理论远不止于此。: We're going to have to reserve this point for our discussions of rent, because I think that the revolution you're talking about is already Ricardo's point. And then Marx, of course, goes further than that.

但让我们继续吧。所以，当然，我们也已经指出了我们的下一点，那就是我们的理解更接近马克思，正如你在我们的讨论中看到的那样，我们刚刚对马克思的更好的观点进行了讨论。But let's go on. So, of course, we also have already pointed out our next point, which is that our understanding is much closer to Marx, as you will have seen in our discussion we just had about the finer points of Marx.

人们甚至许多所谓的马克思主义者忘记马克思的关键一点是，马克思理解资本主义是矛盾的。这一点经常被遗忘。And the key point that people forget about Marx, even many so-called Marxists, is that Marx understood that capitalism was contradictory. This is often forgotten.

如果它不矛盾，那么我们就不需要摆脱它，我们就不会有帝国主义。但这两件事都是真的。And if it wasn't contradictory, then we wouldn't have to get rid of it and we wouldn't have imperialism. But both of these things are true.

接下来的一点是，我们知道资本主义是矛盾的并且容易发生危机。The next point, then, is that we understand that capitalism is contradictory and crisis-prone.

迈克尔·赫德森MICHAEL HUDSON：当今金融资本主义的危机并不是实体经济生产和消费中的国内生产过剩。事实证明这是债务通货紧缩。: The crisis of today's finance capitalism is not one of domestic overproduction within the production and consumption of the real economy. It's turned out to be debt deflation.

在国际上，外币债务负担已成为一种新殖民主义杠杆，如我们所说，对非美国经济实施紧缩政策和其他反劳工政策。And internationally, the foreign dollar debt burden has become a kind of neocolonial leverage to impose austerity, as we've said, and other anti-labor policies on the non-US economy.

所以现在国际经济出现的那种危机和内部矛盾，两极分化，基本上不是马克思在第一卷里讲的。不过如果你读第二卷和第三卷，你就能看到他对金融的关注。当然是我填写的。So the kind of crises and internal contradiction that the international economy is suffering now, as it's being polarized, is not basically what Marx talked about in Volume One. Although if you read Volume Two and Three, you can see his focus on finance. Certainly I filled that out.

那么，让我们来谈谈这场危机是什么以及它今天是如何形成的。So let's talk a bit about what this crisis is and the way it's taking form today.

美国政府是世界上最大的债务国，它说，我们是独一无二的国家。我们是唯一不需要偿还外债的国家。事实上，政府的外债，这意味着世界其他地区的银行储备都以美元形式保存，这是不可能偿还的。The United States government is the world's largest debtor, and it says, we're the unique nation. We're the only country that does not have to pay our foreign debt. And in fact, there's no way that the government foreign debt, which means the bank reserves of the whole rest of the world that are kept in dollars, none of this can be repaid.

只是他们可以互相交易，但他们永远不应该要求偿还。只有美国私营部门和美国政府才能要求其他国家偿还债务。It's just they can trade it with each other, but they're never supposed to ask to be repaid. Only the U.S. private sector and the U.S. government can ask other countries to repay their debt.

这种内部矛盾导致了世界经济的分裂和分裂，迫使其他国家要么面临对美国的永久新封建依赖，要么说，好吧，我们也得发展。不仅仅是欧洲花园的垄断才能让我们的丛林保持丛林的样子。That is the internal contradiction that has driven the world economy apart and is splitting it and is forcing other countries to either face permanent sort of neo-feudal dependency on the United States or to say, well, we get to develop, too. It's not going to be just the monopoly of the European garden keeping our jungle as a jungle.

因此，我认为我们提出的基本观点是，全球大多数人需要基础设施方面的公共投资。它需要实现经济现代化，需要创造繁荣。So I think the basic point that we're making is that the global majority needs public investment in infrastructure. It needs to modernize the economy and it needs to create prosperity.

这意味着让他们的经济摆脱美元债务。从某种意义上说，它是坏账，只能通过吸走它们的经济盈余、迫使它们在财务上破产并抑制它们的增长来偿还。And that means freeing their economies from U.S. dollar debt. It's bad debt in the sense that it can only be repaid by siphoning off their economic surplus, by forcing them into bankruptcy financially and by stifling their growth.

这就是矛盾之处，欧洲花园可以生长，而丛林却不能生长，因为它的任何增长都将采取向美元债券持有者（包括其国内寡头集团）偿还债务的形式。That's the contradiction, that the European garden can grow and the jungle cannot grow because any growth that it has is going to take the form of paying debt service to holders of U.S. dollar bonds, including their own domestic oligarchy.

阿根廷的大部分美元债务实际上并不是欠美国的，尽管是美元债务。这是欠阿根廷统治阶级的，他们以美元形式持有债务。虽然它破坏了阿根廷的经济，但这种情况已经持续了整整一个世纪。Most dollar debt of Argentina isn't really owed to the United States, although it's in dollars. It's owed to the Argentine ruling class that holds its debt in the form of dollars. While it wrecks the Argentine economy, it's been doing that now for an entire century.

这就是为什么我昨天看到阿根廷成为金砖国家的新成员时感到有点惊讶。我不确定只要阿根廷寡头支持美国并继续控制政府，阿根廷如何成为正式的金砖国家成员。That's why I was a little surprised to see Argentina included in the new members of the BRICS yesterday. I'm not sure exactly how you can have Argentina as a full-fledged BRICS member as long as its oligarchy supports the United States and remains in control of the government.

拉迪卡·德赛RADHIKA DESAI：嗯，这是一个非常有趣的观点，迈克尔，我想说，寡头政治本身很可能已经变得不那么强大，而且它本身也没有选择。它不能再依赖美国，但我们必须拭目以待。: Well, that's a very interesting point, Michael, and I would say that it's very likely that that oligarchy itself has become considerably less powerful and it is also itself running out of options. It can no longer rely on the United States, but we will have to see.

但我只想回到你提出的许多观点。所以我们要表达的观点是，资本主义是矛盾的并且容易发生危机。你指出的一件事是，你知道，不知怎的，花园在生长，而丛林却没有。But I just want to come back to many of the points you were raising. So the point we're making is that capitalism is contradictory and crisis prone. And one of the things you pointed out is that, you know, somehow the garden is growing and the jungle is not.

但现实却恰恰相反。这次金砖国家峰会之所以如此具有历史意义，之所以西方本质上如此害怕像约翰内斯堡峰会这样的峰会，正是因为所谓的花园、欧洲国家、帝国主义国家陷入了一个困境。过去几十年的缓慢增长综合症。But the reality is the opposite. The reason why this BRICS summit is so historic, the reason why the West is essentially so afraid of what's going on at summits like the Johannesburg summit is precisely that the so-called garden, the European countries, the imperialist countries have been trapped in a syndrome of slow growth for the last several decades.

而其他国家，尤其是中国，这就是为什么西方媒体会利用一切机会告诉你为什么中国的增长很快就会结束。Whereas these other countries, China in particular, which is why, of course, every opportunity is taken in the Western press to tell you why China's growth is going to end very soon.

但当然，中国和许多其他所谓的丛林国家或特朗普过去所说的狗屎国家，这些狗屎国家做得比你们好得多，伙计们。所以这当然是一个主要问题。But China, of course, and many other of these so-called jungle countries or what Trump used to call shithole countries, those shithole countries are doing much better than you, folks. So this is, of course, a major issue.

但我也想说，你知道，我完全同意你的观点，当前世界正处于危机时刻。我想说，坦率地说，过去几十年来，我们一直生活在一个充满危机的世界，实际上可以追溯到 20 世纪 70 年代，因为 1970 年代爆发的危机从未得到解决。But I also wanted to say, you know, I completely agree with you that the current that at the this moment of crisis in the world. And I would say that, quite frankly, we've been living in a crisis ridden world for the last many decades, really going back to the 1970s, because that crisis that hit in the 1970s was never resolved.

新自由主义被认为是危机的解决方案，但它从未解决危机。它从未恢复资本主义的活力。相反，它只是让世界经济背上了你所说的债务、金融投机和金融化的负担。Neoliberalism was trotted out as a solution to the crisis, but it never resolved the crisis. It never restored capitalism's vigor. And instead, it simply saddled the world economy with the debt that you're talking about and with the financial speculation and financialization that you're talking about.

但如果你想了解整个危机，我想说，首先，任何特定的危机都不是一件事。But if you're trying to understand the whole crisis, I would say, first of all, that any given crisis is never any one thing.

当然，今天有一场金融危机。但今天的危机既是由今天的危机组成的，又是由金融危机组成的。但也存在潜在的生产危机，低投资、低增长、低利润等危机。Of course, there is a financial crisis today. But today's crisis is composed both of today's crisis is composed of a financial crisis. But there is also an underlying productive crisis, a crisis of low investment, low growth, low profits, et cetera.

此外，需求扩大不足的危机也长期存在。Furthermore, there is a crisis of not sufficiently expanding demand, which has been with us for a long time.

所以，你知道，我试图解决这个问题的方法之一是，你知道，马克思和我实际上在我的最新书中，我拥有该表最完善的形式。我实际上创建了一个表格，你知道，因为在资本主义中，至少有两种形式的危机。So, you know, one of the ways I've tried to deal with this is that, you know, Marx and I've actually in my latest book, I have the most developed form of that table. I've actually created a table, you know, because in capitalism, there are at least two forms of crisis.

一是纵向的，即与资产阶级对工人阶级的剥削有关。另一个是水平的。它与不同资本家相互联系的各种方式有关，即通过竞争。One is vertical, that is, it has to do with the exploitation of the working class by the capitalist class. And the other is horizontal. It has to do with the various ways in which various capitalists relate to one another, namely via competition.

因此，竞争和剥削机制都会导致危机，并且在资本主义生存所需的几乎每个领域都导致危机。So both the mechanisms of competition and exploitation lead to crisis and they lead to crisis in practically every sphere that capitalism requires for its existence.

因此，价值生产有两个核心领域，即生产和交换或市场，基本上是生产和市场。那里可能会发生四种不同形式的危机和矛盾。So there are the two core spheres of value production, namely production and exchange or markets, basically the production and markets. And there you have four different forms of crisis that can occur, contradictions that occur.

为了资本主义的存在，还必须改变其他领域。资本主义必须创造货币。它必须建立信用机制。它必须有一个状态。它必须与环境等相关，本质上是通过将其私有化。And then there are other realms that have to be transformed in order for capitalism to exist. Capitalism must create money. It must create credit mechanisms. It must have a state. It must relate to the environment and so on, essentially by privatizing it.

当然，一旦你创建了国家，就会有国际关系。因此，几乎在这些领域的每一个领域都存在着各种形式的危机。And of course, then once you create states, there are international relations. So in practically every one of these spheres, there are forms of crisis.

有货币管理可以导致通货紧缩或者可以导致通货膨胀等等。还有很多危机，有信用危机等等。There are monetary management can lead to deflation or it can lead to inflation, etc., etc. There are many crises, there are credit crises and so on.

所以危机有很多种形式。任何特定的资本主义危机通常都是同时起作用的几种不同危机机制的串联。So there are many forms of crisis. And any given capitalist crisis is usually a concatenation of several different crisis mechanisms that are working at the same time.

但尽管如此，是的，我的意思是，话虽如此，我完全同意资本主义容易发生危机并且是矛盾的。But nevertheless, yeah, I mean, having said that, I completely agree that capitalism is crisis prone and contradictory.

今天，我们今天面临的金融危机是由生产体系本身的危机造成的，这也是金融积累的部分原因，因为当你没有足够的投资机会、生产性投资机会时，人们就会保留他们的资金，他们投资于投机而不是生产。And today, the financial crisis we have today is underlain by a crisis of the productive system itself, which is partly also why finance accumulates, because it's when you don't have enough investment opportunities, productive investment opportunities that people hold back their money and they invest in speculation rather than production.

当公司不借钱进行有效投资时，你就必须出去寻找所有愿意向你借钱的工人，以便为他们的汽车、教育和住房等提供资金。It's when companies are not borrowing to invest productively that you have to go out and find all the workers who will borrow from you in order to finance their cars and their education and their houses and so on.

因此，在这背后，还存在着生产性危机。但是，是的，除此之外，过去几十年来，生产性危机已经形成，金融危机层层叠加。So underlying this, there is a productive crisis as well. But yes, on top of that, productive crisis has been built over the last many decades, layer upon layer of financial crises.

迈克尔·赫德森MICHAEL HUDSON：嗯，你可以看到美国的危机。为什么不能在美国投资？: Well, you can see the crisis in the United States. Why cannot there be investment in the United States?

标准普尔 500 强等最大的公司已将其净利润的 92% 用于股票回购和支付股息。只有8%用于投资。The largest companies, the Standard & Poor's 500, have spent 92 percent of their profits of their net income on stock buybacks and on paying out of dividends. Only 8 percent is to invest.

他们找不到任何可以投资的东西。苹果公司已经说过我们找不到一分钱可以投资。因此，我们在股票回购和股息上支付的钱比我们实际投资的钱还要多。我们正在剥离资产。They can't find anything to invest in. Apple has said we cannot find a single penny to invest. So we're paying more money in stock buybacks and dividends than we're actually investing. We're asset stripping.

金融资本主义主要是榨取性的。通过债务融资住房，它让经济背上了沉重的债务负担，让劳动力必须赚取足够高的工资来偿还住房债务、教育债务、汽车债务、信用卡债务，以至于无法就业。And finance capitalism is primarily extractive. It has loaded the economy down with debt so much by debt financed housing, by making its labor have to earn a high enough wage to pay its housing debt, its education debt, its automobile debt, its credit card debt, that it's unemployable.

所以，当然，美国和西欧已经没有投资机会了。这就是为什么花园正在去工业化，并将变成丛林，因为你赚钱的唯一方法就是通过资产剥离、经济去工业化、蚕食经济来赚钱。So, of course, there are no investment opportunities left in the United States and Western Europe. That's why the garden is deindustrializing and is going to turn into a jungle, because the only way that you can make money is financially by asset stripping, by deindustrializing your economy, by cannibalizing it.

这在美国和英国经济中表现得最为明显。这就是撒切尔主义和里根经济学的意义所在。And that's the clearest in the U.S. and British economies. That's what Thatcherism and Reaganomics is all about.

拉迪卡·德赛RADHIKA DESAI：当然。我们已经快一个小时了。所以我认为这也没什么不好，因为我们已经到了最后一点，那就是我们在这个节目中了解到，在这个地缘政治经济时刻，帝国主义正在衰落。: Absolutely. And we are nearly at an hour. So I think it's just as well because we are down to our final point, and that is that we understand in this show, in this geopolitical economy hour, that imperialism is declining.

通过说“你知道，帝国主义总是非常强大，而且它要么今天和以前一样强大，要么今天比以前更强大”来表明你有多激进，这是很流行的。It's very fashionable to show how radical you are by saying that, you know, imperialism was always very strong and it's either just as strong today as it ever was or stronger today than it ever was.

但事实是，当前危机的很大一部分，在构成当前危机的资本主义的许多矛盾中，很大一部分是帝国主义长期以来一直在衰落的简单事实。But the fact of the matter is that the large part of the present crisis, among the many contradictions of capitalism that are part of the present crisis, is the simple fact that imperialism has been declining for a very long time.

今天，它已经到了一个非常关键的地步，帝国主义国家对世界其他地区的控制似乎正在从其手中消失。And today it has reached a point, a very critical point, where it looks as though the kind of control that the imperialist countries could exercise over the rest of the world is slipping from its grasp.

迈克尔·赫德森MICHAEL HUDSON：嗯，在第一次世界大战期间，德国银行体系高度工业化。它与政府和重工业有效合作。: Well, down through World War I, the German banking system was highly industrialized. It was working efficiently with governments and heavy industry.

但世界其他地方却并非如此。它采取了英荷美体系。它正在衰落，因为这个体系基本上就像罗马帝国晚期的体系一样。But that's not the way the rest of the world went. It took the Anglo-Dutch-American system. And it's declining because the system basically is like that of the late Roman Empire.

它为最富有的1%或10%的人创造了巨大的财富，但却让90%的人陷入贫困。如果你要让市场变得贫困，那么你就会遇到马克思所描述的那种危机。It created great wealth for the wealthiest 1% or the 10%, but it impoverished the 90%. And if you're going to impoverish the market, then you're going to have the kind of crisis that Marx described.

然而马克思并没有想到，也没有看到它会发生，没有人预料到这会是一场金融危机，因为马克思希望工业资本主义的自身利益会导致它阻止金融按照以前的方式运作，即他所谓的高利贷。资本，并真正变得富有生产力。And yet Marx did not think, see that it would, nobody anticipated that it would be a financial crisis, because Marx hoped that industrial capitalism's self-interest would lead it to prevent finance from operating the way it used to, by what he called usury capital, and actually become productive.

第一次世界大战以来的西方经济已经抹去了生产性投资和非生产性投资、生产性劳动力和非生产性劳动力之间的全部区别。The Western economies since World War I have erased the whole distinction between productive and unproductive investment, productive and unproductive labor.

GDP和国民收入账户没有对生产和对食利者部门、金融、保险和房地产部门或垄断部门的真正转移支付进行任何区分。The GDP and national income accounts don't draw any distinction between production and what is really a transfer payment to the rentier sector, to the finance, insurance, and real estate sector, or to monopolies.

因此，看似实证的统计数据甚至无法解释为什么帝国主义和金融资本主义正在衰落。So there's not even a way that the seemingly empirical statistics can explain why imperialism and why finance capitalism is declining.

RADHIKA DESAI RADHIKA DESAI：是的，你也知道，这里有很多话要说，但我们最后还要谈几点。: Yeah, and you know, too, and again, there's just so much to say here, but we'll just end by a couple of more points.

但你知道，按照我的看法，帝国主义本质上正在衰落，因为，你知道，这样想，帝国主义的巅峰，从那时起它就一直在逐渐衰落，对我来说太慢了，但仍然在衰落，是1914年。But you know, imperialism essentially is declining the way I look at it, because, you know, think about it this way, the high point of imperialism, since which point it has been declining gradually, too slowly for me, but nevertheless declining, is 1914.

1914年是帝国主义的鼎盛时期。在过去的几十年里，不仅英国获得了自己的大帝国，其他一些国家似乎也试图获得帝国。因此世界基本上被划分为这些大帝国。1914 was the high point of imperialism. In the previous decades, not only had Britain acquired its big empire, but a number of other countries appeared that they'd also tried to acquire empires. And so the world was essentially divided up into these big empires.

这就是帝国主义的顶峰。但这也是帝国主义世界秩序大危机爆发的时刻。帝国列强之间的战争大大削弱了他们的实力。So that was a high point of imperialism. But it was also the moment at which the big crisis of the imperialist world order broke. The wars between the imperial powers substantially weakened them.

然后，再加上共产主义的崛起和第三世界国家的非殖民化斗争，实质上使世界走上了帝国主义衰落的漫长而缓慢的道路等等。And then that, combined with the rise of communism and the struggles for decolonization in third world countries, essentially put the world onto the long and slow road of the decline of imperialism and so on.

但无论如何，根据马克思的说法，那一刻也恰逢资本主义的顶峰，因为事实上，到了这个时候，资本主义在其祖国已经进入了垄断阶段。But that moment also coincided with, I would say, the peak of capitalism, according to Marx anyway, because really, by this point in time, capitalism in its homelands had already entered the monopoly phase.

到那时，资本主义确实没有那么多可以给予世界其他地方，我的意思是，整个世界。也就是说，它在发展生产力方面已经尽力了。At that point, capitalism really didn't have that much more to give to the rest of the world, I mean, to the world in general. That is to say, it had done what it could in terms of developing the forces of production.

现在的关键是，如果我们有其他形式的生产，社会主义，无论如何，某种或其他版本的社会主义，它们将会得到更好的发展。And now the point was that they would be better developed if we had other forms of production, socialists, whatever, some or the other version of socialism.

顺便说一下，当你看到苏联一旦稳定下来，它就在几十年内成为世界第二工业强国时就见证了这一点。它从欧洲最落后的国家，成为第二工业强国，因为它向你展示了计划生产的能力。And this was, by the way, witnessed when you saw that the Soviet Union, once it was stabilized, it managed to become the second industrial power in the world in a matter of decades. From being the most backward country in Europe, it became the second industrial power because it showed you what planned production could do.

当然，资本主义已经达到了垄断阶段，也就是希法亭所说的金融资本阶段，在这个阶段，大型银行基本上控制了大量的生产设备。So and also, of course, the very fact that capitalism had reached the monopoly phase and what Hilferding called the finance capital phase in which large banks essentially controlled vast swathes of the productive apparatus.

从本质上讲，这告诉你，规划的时刻已经到来，因为这就是大公司。这是一个巨大的计划经济。Essentially, what this told you is that the moment for planning had already come because that's what a big corporation is. It's a giant planned economy.

因此，出现的唯一问题是，为什么我们应该允许这些巨大的计划经济存在，它们的存在只是因为我们的劳动，它们的存在只是因为我们制定了允许它们存在的法律等。那么为什么不去社交呢？从某种意义上说，社会主义的时刻已经到来。So the only question that arises is why should we allow these giant planned economies which only exist because of our labor, which only exist because we create the laws and so on that allow them to exist. So why not socialize? And that was a sense in which the moment for socialism had come.

当然，我们现在也进行了社会主义实验。他们还站起来反对资本主义。And so, of course, we have had now socialistic experiments as well. And they have also stood up against capitalism.

但关键是，在资本主义的故乡，我们今天所目睹的是这些国家的劳动人民以及其他人类为维持资本主义在这些国家的生存而付出的代价。But the point is that in the homelands of capitalism, what we are witnessing today is the cost that both the working people of these countries, as well as the rest of humanity, is paying for keeping capitalism alive in these countries.

最后回到金砖国家，我们不能不知道，金砖国家大多数都不是社会主义国家。但有趣的是，几乎在每一种情况下，你都可以证明，他们做得好的地方，比如他们减轻了贫困或实现了工业化，或者诸如此类的地方，他们都是通过采用非资本主义手段来实现的。Coming back to the BRICS in closing, one cannot but be aware that most of the countries of the BRICS are not socialist. But the interesting thing is that in practically every case, you can show that where they have done well, where they have alleviated poverty or industrialized or what have you, they have done so by the adoption of non-capitalist means.

而采取这种手段的自由，正是该集团与七国集团对抗的关键问题。And it is the freedom to adopt such means, which is the crucial issue at stake in the confrontation between this group of countries and the G7.

迈克尔·赫德森MICHAEL HUDSON：嗯，我认为我们一直在描述的是美帝国主义适得其反，摧毁了自己的经济。最重要的是，通过劳动力去工业化和去工会化，通过关注美国可以从其他国家获得的东西的外部剥削。: Well, I think what we've been describing is that U.S. imperialism has backfired to destroy its own economy. And above all, by de-industrializing and de-unionizing the labor force, by focusing on external exploitation of what America can get from other countries.

美国没有在国内和内部创造经济盈余，而是遵循了摧毁罗马帝国的那种自我毁灭的动力。Instead of creating an economic surplus at home and within, the United States has followed the same kind of self-destructive dynamic that destroyed the Roman Empire.

它无法再工业化，无法摆脱债务负担，就像金砖国家在不摆脱外债负担的情况下无法实现工业化一样。It cannot re-industrialize, leaving the debt overhead in place any more than the BRICS countries can industrialize without freeing themselves from their foreign debt overhead.

因为金融体系使美国劳动力的价格被挤出了世界市场，因为让劳动力支付我们一直以来所描述的住房、教育、医疗保健等费用。Because the financial system has priced U.S. labor out of world markets as a result of making labor pay for what we've described all along, the housing, education, health care, et cetera.

然而经济历史学家现在说，嗯，你知道，黑暗时代确实不存在，因为罗马帝国晚期最富有的 1% 的罗马人变得如此富有，以至于经济实际上增长了。确实，99%的劳动力沦为农奴，但那1%的劳动力却真正实现了经济的增长。And yet the economic historians now say, well, you know, there really wasn't a dark age, because the wealthiest 1% of Romans in the late Roman Empire got so rich that the economy actually grew. It's true that 99% of the labor were reduced to serfdom, but that 1% actually made a growing economy.

嗯，这就是拜登经济学中似乎正在发生的事情。这似乎就是美国经济目前正在发生的情况。最富有的1%到10%的人赚的钱如此之多，以至于超过了99%的经济的剥夺和债务以及减少和萎缩。Well, that's what seems to be happening in, that's Bidenomics. That seems to be what's happening in the U.S. economy now. The wealthiest 1% to 10% are making so much money that it exceeds the deprivation and the indebtedness and the reduction and shrinkage of the 99% economy.

因此，美国要维持最富有的金融阶层的这种繁荣，唯一的希望就是冻结现状，阻止任何促进国内外劳动力和工业发展的积极政府政策。And so the only hope that the United States has of maintaining this kind of prosperity for the wealthiest financial class is to freeze the status quo, to block any kind of active government policies that promote labor and industry at home or abroad.

今天的工业资本主义已经成为恐龙。这正是导致 19 世纪末走向社会主义的原因。但相反，我们有金融资本主义。And the industrial capitalism today is a dinosaur. It's what was leading the late 19th century onwards to what seemed to be socialism. But instead, we've got finance capitalism.

如果你有知识，如果你解释一下我们将在即将到来的混合经济战略节目中做什么，每个发达的经济体都是混合经济，政府发挥主要作用。And if you have knowledge, if you explain what we're going to be doing in the coming shows of how this mixed economy strategy, every economy that's developed has been a mixed economy with the government to play a major role.

如果让私人金融利益接管政府的这一角色，美国经济就会出现去工业化的萎缩。If you let the private financial interests take over this role of government, you're going to have the kind of shrinkage that's de-industrialized the U.S. economy.

政府的作用必须成为金砖国家经济发展的核心焦点。这需要将自己从金融资本主义和金融帝国主义的动态中解放出来，我们在所有节目中都在讨论这一点。And that role of government has to be the core focus of how the BRICS economies are going to develop. And that requires freeing themselves from the dynamics of finance capitalism and finance imperialism that we've been discussing throughout all of our shows.

拉迪卡·德赛RADHIKA DESAI：是的，完全正确，迈克尔。因此，让我以最后的评论来结束这一点，这确实是美国的许多秘密，而美国的本质是一长串工业衰退、金融化、不平等、社会崩溃、政治封锁，你能想到的，文化衰退。: Yes, exactly, Michael. So let me just bring this to a close by making one final comment, which is really many of the secrets of what is the United States, when what is the United States is a long list of industrial decline, financialization, inequality, social breakdown, political lockdown, you name it, cultural decay.

这一切都正在发生。理解为什么会发生这一切的一个线索是，美国得到了试图成为主要帝国主义国家的机会，并在帝国主义实际上衰落的时刻用双手抓住了它。All of this is happening. The one clue to understanding why all of this is happening is that the United States got its chance to try to be the leading imperialist country and grabbed it with both hands precisely at the moment when imperialism was actually declining.

带着这样的想法，让我们结束这一切吧。我们将于九月回来，希望还有许多其他有趣的节目。在此之前，感谢您的观看并期待在几周后再次这样做。再见。So with that thought, let's just let's bring this to a close. We will be back in September, hopefully with many other interesting shows. So until then, thanks for watching and looking forward to doing this again in a few weeks. Bye-bye.

（谷歌翻译：Imperialism: How the struggle of both classes and nations creates our world）